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Mastering Diabetes by Cyrus Khambatta and Robby Barbaro
- Thread starter HSSS
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Oldvatr
Expert
Here is the study report
https://casereports.bmj.com/content/2012/bcr.02.2012.5878.short
This looks like it may be a follow up study
https://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/479030
NicoleC1971
BANNED
That's is interesting in that there's a link between coeliac and type 1 diabetes so maybe cutting out the gluten removed the attack on the beta cells? I guess the mice might be in for another round of diabetes cures which then fail to be replicated in humans.
Well what I find particularly interesting about that aspect is about five years ago I started demonstrating the symptoms of Coelic disease. I was tested and the tests came back negative. IBS was blamed at this point but my symptoms almost completely disappeared after and sudden and sustained improvement in my HBA1C.
Obviously highly anecdotal, but I do wonder how it’s all connected.
Finally found another study which tested this theory further. The upshot is this study was much more comprehensive and perhaps not surprisingly the findings were much less dramatic.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4936999/
Oldvatr
Expert
In the interests of balanced discussion I would like to compare the OP with another diet specifically in the aspect of T1D.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5863244/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5863244/
D
Deleted member 532959
Guest
6.2% is not within the non-diabetic range. Participants were unable to achieve non-diabetic numbers, despite being on the program for a year. And yet the headline at the top fo the link reads:
"Virta can reverse type 2 diabetes quickly and sustainably"
Those figures are neither representative or remission nor reversal. Comparatively-speaking, given those with whom we bump virtual shoulders, it's not even that quick. And to the idea of "sustainably", here's their stats for recidivism:
https://twitter.com/The_Nutrivore/status/1449077251543158785
The corrected chart is within the comments
Now because I value n=1, especially when that n=1 is cumulative, becoming n-100's, I disregard Virta. not even from just a high-carb point of view, but from a low-carb pov also. i know that the real-word outcomes of low-carbers, motivated enough and within a proper support framework, like this place, completely trounce Virtas numbers. As such, I find it a bad representation of the power of a low-carb approach.
Again, not really interested in playing study top-trumps. I'm interested in real-world results. That there are currently people achieving non-diabetic Hba1C, effortless weight-loss and reversal of many other nagging ailments and symptoms of disease WHILE eating tons of carbs is something that anyone with any shred of scientific curiosity and inquisitiveness would be chomping at the bit to try and understand (Perhaps I assumed wrong that you at least aspired to the sentiment in your signature). That you instead meet these anecdotes with incredulity and the inference of foul-play and lying is as sad as it is absurd.
Oldvatr
Expert
I have at several points in my life followed a vegan way of eating. At Uni, and even recently when my children turned vegan. It did not agree with me at all on any of the occaions, and on one occasion I ended up in hospital for malnutrition to be corrected. My meter does not lie. I am carb intolerant. I have lost all the weight I need to, and my sugars are currently in good control even after having had my diabetic medications stopped by the consultant. But I remain diabetic and I do not claim remission. I can eat a reasonable amount of carb based foods and I do not need keto diet. My last HbA1c was 45, which followed a stay in hospital where I was forced to eat Eartwell against my wishes. A hospital vegan chickpea curry triggered a crash trolley evemt that put me into cardio ER with suspected heart attack that turned out to be wind. So me and vegan do not agree at all.
D
Deleted member 532959
Guest
Being vegan is very difficult. The food part is relatively easy. It's everything else that takes a toll
Glad for your step-mum. I also found that giving up dairy relieved me of perhaps 90% of joint/arthritis issues, and I get closer to 100% pain/inflammation-free the 'cleaner' my diet becomes.
As for the guy not taking insulin, I'm assuming you mean Drew? I might be wrong, but I think he was just referring to a short period when he was first diagnosed, and when he hadn't yet been properly set-up for insulin. I'd have to confirm, but I'm pretty sure he doses in exactly the same way as other T1's. He does mention preferring injections to automatic pumps, but not sure if that's also not changed in the interim period. That interview was recorded only a few months into his vegan journey. He's now at the 3-year mark, so a lot may have changed
I know that he did Paleo for 8-years, and only keto for 4 months. And I'm pretty sure he mentions Bernstein (If not in the interview i posted, then in others I've heard). Ultimately, the low-ish carb program that served him so well, for those first eight or-so years, just ended up kicking back. Fortunately he had people around him that could offer an alternative. And when I look at his Instagram page, i see someone just grabbing life by the neck and just getting it done. Whatever he's doing seems to be working for him.
Sorry to hear of your woes. I'd hate to be insulin-dependant (Not that it shows, given how lax I am about getting my ish together). But I think you might have me a little confused. It's not about me not being willing to give up a way of eating (Unless we're talking about being vegan, which is not in any question at all). My insistence on holding onto a high-carb framework is for a few reasons. Firstly, veganism is already restrictive enough. Secondly, low-carb/keto amps up that level of restriction significantly. but lastly, I've tried Paleo. i've experimented with Primal-eating, done a nose-to-tail <20g keto experiment. This was some years back, and before the diabetes. I've experienced positive outcomes from those experiments, enough to say that i might have been able to stick with it. But not only did i lose faith in the whole scene, but none of it lived up to a far, far greater sense of wellness that I'd experienced, previously, on a high-carb, raw-vegan WOE. In my personal, subjective experience, that has been the optimum health experience. unfortunately, it's really hard for anyone but the most dedicated and disciplined...and that ain't me. Maybe one day, I'll get back there. And maybe it'll all go feet up, and I'll have to end up doing vegan keto. I'm not unwilling to go there, but it's definitely the last option
Oldvatr
Expert
I am surprised at your opening statement in this post.
"6.2% is not within the non-diabetic range. Participants were unable to achieve non-diabetic numbers, despite being on the program for a year"
The graphic shows an average value, and there is a declaration that remission (i.e. non diabetic levels) was achieved by 60% of those taking part. The graph does not show a rise like the Barnard one, but then again it is a graphic, and may be lying or oversimplified. Virta do not appear to have published a study report, so it is difficult to assess the claims properly.
As you point out there is anecdotal (n=1) evidence on this forum that it is possible to achieve better results than those claimed by Virta. Indeed the trial data from the Unwin and Mosely studies also confirm lo carb to be effective. My own progress over the past 6 years is also proof to me that it works.
bulkbiker
BANNED
However, I'm not currently following the MD or any program. I am just eating less of any foods that I want. The only qualifier is that they're vegan. I'm currently considering increasing the current quantity of junk-food I'm eating and more closely monitoring throughout November (This presumes I get more interim strips). Nothing certain, though
So you have very high FBG (10 mmol/l) and are considering adding more junk food to your diet to make it more like the SAD that Barnard marked his vegan effort against and you think that may help with your condition..
Good luck with that.
Your n=1 will be interesting to say the least.
bulkbiker
BANNED
My bolding...
Yet you went back to vegan and developed T2... hmmmm.
At least you don't claim it's for your health.
Mbaker
Well-Known Member
Again as I always say, show the results. I would like to see hom-ir, hs-crp, trigs, hdl (ratios), fasting insulin and cgm traces / fbg and post prandial readings. I would like to see some examples anywhere, of how persons on a Vegan high carb diet are doing after 5 years, with exercise and without. . To stay accountable here are some of my fasting and post postprandial results over the last few days of spot testing:
I have pictures of around 99% of every meal I have had for over 3 years, which can be cross referenced with my medical records. Cyrus and Robby are getting free advertising when Cyrus himself has spikes of 170 mg/dl (9.4 mmol/L) - all credibility gone.
I used to follow Tim Sheiff when I was plant based and exercising 3 hours a day for an A1c of 41-42. This gent was easily the best on UK Ninja Warrior, a prime time ITV show, the "V" diet ruined his health, I have countless examples of the same. There are sites I cannot link to in this post as the human suffering some go through is shocking, to the point I think YouTube should consider taking down. The purpose of my post is to highlight that the "V" diet is new, is counter intuitive for Type 2's not proven in the mid to long term (3, 5 and plus years), either in a trial (which I don't care much for), but with real world anecdotes. The claims of being safe for all stages of life, need those who said this to be assessed, as it is like the school children marking their own home work. On this basis for Type 2 reversal it does not deserve too much time, and Type 1's should perhaps insist in see CGM traces for this protocol. Of course the choice is there, but the holes have to be highlighted.
I really don’t want to derail the thread, but to clarify, the examples absolutely are worthy of consideration, but in the right context. N=1 examples - as I said - are valuable. However, those being quoted on this thread are from sites with vested interest. My interest is in independently verified evidence, hence the request to be pointed in the direction of papers similar to those produced by Dr Unwin as part of his medical practice.
Personally I love n=1 examples, but in a context where the n=1 is explaining and sharing their own experience with others, as is the case all over this forum. The forum is a place for peer support and hearing from people who have been there and done what one is trying to achieve for oneself is very powerful and helpful. While among type 2s low carb - in its broadest sense - is the predominant approach, within that are a myriad of different strategies and eating regimes.
What I have never seen - and I am genuinely interested as to it’s feasibility, is an n=1 talking about their personal success with the Mastering Diabetes (or similar) approach. I happen to think that anyone doing this would be welcomed as it can be difficult to advise and support those who wish to manage type2 with a vegan way of eating in the absence of personal experience or any rigorous evidence of the efficacy of such an approach.
Sadly, theoretical discussions with or without an underlying agenda don’t help people looking for practical solutions.
Alexandra100
Well-Known Member
@Beating-My-Betes, thanks, I would be very interested to read these files, but am having no success in opening them. Can you help?
I'm not sure your results are unclear. A fasting blood glucose reading of 10.0 seems to send a fairly clear message.No! The two things are intertwined, but the PCRM model is based fundamentally on real-world health results. That doesn't mean all is fine 'n' dandy. As a vegan, for various reasons, i don't support them.
My own results are unclear, currently. I have very few strips at the moment, and the last time I ordered them they were held up for weeks in customs. As such, I'm not even measuring daily. Last time I checked, a few days ago FBG was 180 (Down from 200-and something), and 5 kilos lost (Currently weigh less than I have in 7 years, and 7 kilos lighter than I was at diagnosis, four years ago).
However, I'm not currently following the MD or any program. I am just eating less of any foods that I want. The only qualifier is that they're vegan. I'm currently considering increasing the current quantity of junk-food I'm eating and more closely monitoring throughout November (This presumes I get more interim strips). Nothing certain, though
Before you jump the gun, the infrequency of testing makes it dicey to draw any conclusions, as it's hard to know how typical that 10.0 reading is. If there was evidence it was happening consistently, I'd obviously agree with you.
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Yes, I don't disagree there, it's just I would at least take it as a cause for mild concern and further testing. The original poster says he will address the issue by upping his junk food levels.
Oldvatr
Expert
We recently did have a poster starting a high carb low fat vegan diet, and they shared their results, which did seem to be going in the right direction. Then the posts stopped and the thread went dormant. We do not get much personal experiences being shared on this forum. and as I point out the Testamonials and Success subthreads seem bereft of success stories. We get many vociferous supporters of the high carb low fat WOE, but no triumphal fanfares in claiming success and remission. It is also noted that those supporters answer questions with links to glossy websites with no proper independant evidence on them. The LCHF movement can post links to formal archived scientific studies to support their POV, We do have our own (n=1) stories shared in this forum and in the media. I believe some of the respondents in this thread have experienced the glare of the media on them,
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I have to agree, I've been following this thread and the most compelling evidence provided was for a Gluten-Free Low GI diet, not an HCLF diet. I am always open to possibilities, but I've yet to see any evidence that would convince me that it's even worth experimenting with, particularly as the Carb Content in these diets is so astronomically high.
D
Deleted member 532959
Guest
An average value presumes the likelihood, that some couldn't even get close to that 6.2% level. And 60% imo is no real cause for celebration; even less so, considering the recidivism.
Now, of course, if I were only motivated towards scoring points for my 'tribe', I'd cling to Virta's results as proof that, at best, low-carb works for 60% of people, and that many of those will have experienced numbers (Both weight and Hba1C) creeping back into areas they never wanted to return to.
But I know better, and for no other reason than the strength of, and in my valuing of, anecdotal evidence.
From there, it becomes a question of working out why neither Virta's nor Barnard's study are good representations of the real-world results of the diets they are testing. Starting with the inherent flaws and lack of robustness within nutritional science, and adding the free-living aspect to the fact that both diets are at the extreme-end of the scale and I think it starts to become clearer why neither of these are going to be 'first-call' for proof-of-concept.
As for your last paragraph, hopefully we've got past the point where you need to convince me of the efficacy of Low-carb, at least for the most part. Not sure about Mosely, as am not really familiar. And as for Dr.Unwin...well, I'll not share my thoughts on him, other than to say that i am happy for those he has helped.
