Mastering Diabetes by Cyrus Khambatta and Robby Barbaro

[Mbaker]

As an atheist, I have learnt not to bother getting into conversations about the existence (or lack there of) of god with those whose entire (in this case) existence, and that of their existence after life, is dependant on such beliefs. Even though I have no burning desire to convert people to a god-less life, I also do not wish to waste time discussing with people who will never budge on their position.

I realise that Veganism has a protected status and respect that. I am sure my wife and kids would appreciate my ethics to have the right to be healthy and contribute to family life and society, with a chance at a full life. I think real Vegans which you appear to be, have a real conflict, as the movement has been hijacked by the "plant based" industry and therefore profit motive. I have been on the site for around 5 years and posted many pictures of entire plates of plants (literally), so I started closer to your position. I really tried with the WFPB meals with less animal (some searches on this site will show that). I could not out exercise the carb hit - I think I am typical of a run of the mill Type 2.

Similarly, with veganism, I have no interest in back-and-forth with those whose entire lifestyle and belief system would be fundamentally threatened by any notion that veganism could be both a healthful and sustainable lifestyle choice.

Again, I swallowed the meat causes cancer stuff, eat less of it and so on. Then you look at the evidence and it is farcical and agenda driven. In my culture there is Rice and Peas, Yams, Green Bananna's, Greens, Plantain, Potatoes, Meats, Fish and Shell Fish. Everyone knows about Jamiacan chicken with rice and peas. I am convinced that had "we" stuck with these and not allowed in the sweets, chocolate, chips, cereals, modern breads, biscuits and fast foods I would have been fine. Does that initial dietary pattern appear anti-plants. My concern (genuinely) is the damage particularly to young girls, YouTube is littered with them; failed Keto eating is usually an temptation back to carby stuff or a scare about LDL, by comparision.

I am mentioning this here, partly because it's the fist time this has come up in a while, but mainly because you seem to be among a small contingent of people within this community, who's views on veganism go way past understandable caution and firmly into anti-veganism - something I no longer have any interest in wasting my time countering. You do you, boo

Your assertion cannot be levelled at me, here's an example why:

You can see by the percentage I was heavily into plants and that by the timing this was at an early stage. I was heavily influenced by Mr Barnard, et al, they are very good at half truths.

If I have you wrong, then I truly apologise.

Of course, if you or anyone else has a genuine interest in discussing veganism from an open-minded standpoint, then i'd be happy to do so (though I'm sure this'd be better in a separate thread). And anyone is welcome to 'pm' me at any time.

I have plenty of room for alternative views. I don't exactly follow all of the rules - beetroot, carrots, butternut squash and unripe cherries and plums are hardly keto / carnivore. But the discussion goes both ways, the Vegan movement is being shilled by the big producers who have nothing in common with real fruit and veg.

 

[Jaylee]

Folks.
A polite reminder.
This is is not a discussion on the diet's politics, religion, "agendas" or ethics.
Please stick with, has this MD diet worked if you're living as a diabetic.

Last chance..

 

[Oldvatr]

All I will say is most of us have followed a similar diet at some point after all what was the advice we were all given for so long eat less fat eat plenty of carbohydrate. And following that advice brought so many people here so I think in all probability this thread is dead so roger dodger .over and out...

I second that emotion. From what i gather this plan is aimed at reducing insulin resistance, but does not remove the need for ongoing insulin treatment. Cyrus is still a Type 1 diabetic. In his own words he has admitted that the changes are not guaranteed nor are they permanent.

My concern is the exhortation to eat lots of fruit in the diet. Apart from the sugar content in ripe fruit being a known problem for T2D, the higher intake of fructose will generate excess lipids, that will be atored in adipose tissue unless burnt off by heavy duty aerobic exercise. So the plan necessitates a heavy workout schedule to accompany it else it will be counter productive (like Eatwell).

It is clear that this plan may suit insulin users who are active in the exercise department, it is not useful at all to most T2D and should carry a public health warning to that effect, It is also potentially lacking in essential nutrients that can lead to problems if used on a long term basis. The supplementation suggested is a joke IMO

 

[HSSS]

Folks.
A polite reminder.
This is is not a discussion on the diet's politics, religion, "agendas" or ethics.
Please stick with, has this MD diet worked if you're living as a diabetic.

Last chance..

Without wishing to derail the (my) thread, cause arguments or contradict a mod can I just point out my original post was asking for more than just personal experiences.

What experience does anyone have, what are the “good or bad” points? Where is the argument strong and well evidenced? Where does it fall down?

which breaks down as at least :
1.What experience does anyone have, what are the “good or bad” points?
2. Where is the argument strong and well evidenced? Where does it fall down?”

 

[Jaylee]

Without wishing to derail the (my) thread, cause arguments or contradict a mod can I just point out my original post was asking for more than just personal experiences.



which breaks down as at least :
1.What experience does anyone have, what are the “good or bad” points?
2. Where is the argument strong and well evidenced? Where does it fall down?”

There are many many topics discussing certain perceived "agendas" behind certain diets.
Disapointingly.
This thread seems to have become another one forsaking the actual merits or not of anyone who may have had a go at this featured diet?

My PM box is open should you wish to discuss further..

 

[Deleted member 532959]

Am I allowed to reply to MBaker's reply (I'm assuming it not having been deleted means it's within the spirit of the thread)?

I can keep it within the context of MD, even though it explains a slightly wider perspective

 

[Jaylee]

Am I allowed to reply to MBaker's reply (I'm assuming it not having been deleted means it's within the spirit of the thread)?

I can keep it within the context of MD, even though it explains a slightly wider perspective

Hi,

You are most welcome to use the PM fuction.

Best wishes.

 

[Stu93]

Vegan propaganda pure and simple.. and fairly ineffective for T2 unless you fancy no remission and worsening HbA1c over time.
View attachment 49523

Your chart show conventional diet and a vegan diet. How can this be used as a comparrison when it excludes, for example, specific data on a low calorie diet, and a low carb/high fat (ketogenic) diet...surely your chart and the data therein is bias towards a vegan diet!

 

[JohnEGreen]

Your chart show conventional diet and a vegan diet. How can this be used as a comparrison when it excludes, for example, specific data on a low calorie diet, and a low carb/high fat (ketogenic) diet...surely your chart and the data therein is bias towards a vegan diet!

I'm sorry to have to tell you this but this thread has had a memorial as it died about 1 week and 6 days ago.

 

[Oldvatr]

Your chart show conventional diet and a vegan diet. How can this be used as a comparrison when it excludes, for example, specific data on a low calorie diet, and a low carb/high fat (ketogenic) diet...surely your chart and the data therein is bias towards a vegan diet!

Well spotted. The author of that chart is a well known advocate for the vegan movement, The inference you draw here is what he intended by doing the research to provide evidence in support. unfortunstely, as has been noted, the graphs both start to rise back up to their starting values even during the trial, and the vegan one only just skims the non diabetic range for a brief instant.
The other weakness is that what he used to emulate the conventional diet is not clear. We believe it to be SAD, but it could be unresricted TAD instead (Typical American Diet)

 

[JohnEGreen]

Remember we are restricted to only posting of our personal experiences with this particular diet regime that is why this thread is dead.

 

[Deleted member 532959]

@HSSS... I have been trying to read through this post, but there is so much going on...

Thanks for sharing some first-hand experience.

Whole-food, low-fat, high-carb diets can make it challenging to hit maintenance or training targets. Of course, that's one of the ways in which it can really work for people to lose weight i.e High-bulk, high-fibre and low-caloric-density (Similar to the ideas of 'Volumetrics', coined by Barbara Rolls).

One of the main issues I have with the MD program (also other similar HCLFPB diets), other than it being expressly sold as 100% vegan, is the preference (Even insistence) on the avoidance of oils and all processed foods. i also think they short-change on their recommendations for protein (certainly, 40 grams, is unnecessarily low). It would only take a scoop of protein--powder, added to a smoothie (Something they prefer to avoid, on the whole), to give quite a significant boost to P intake, without adding more bulk to overall consumption. The same goes for oils. Though they are indeed pretty nutritionally-void, they offer an easy way to bump up the calories if people are finding their deficit too great.

I'm currently on the first month of a four-month (five, perhaps) plan, to lose weight and improve my health-markers. I'm currently blogging it on this site (Forgive the first month; It's being done this way for a very specific reason. And I'm way behind on uploading tracking results ). December will be given over to 'EatWell'. For January, I'll be doing some kind of mash-up of various HCLFPB diets. So if you're looking for an opportunity to re-try a higher-carb plan, coinciding with the New-Year, perhaps we could share ideas, recipes and support.

 

[HSSS]

@HSSS I have been trying to read through this post, but there is so much going on. I thought perhaps I could just share my experience. I was diagnosed with type 2 just over 2 years ago. The doctor advised me to follow the low carb or keto program, after about a month of flat line blood sugar levels and constantly feeling very ill, I decided to try a plant based higher carb diet. In the initial weeks I did see some bigger spikes that were a little scary coming from low carb, but they started to settle within a month. What I did notice was that my pre meal numbers where often better than when low carbing, and my 2 hr pp typically stayed between 6 mmol and 8 mmol. I kept this up for about 6 months and my A1C came down to 6% from over 13%. I was eating about 1700 - 2000 calories a day, and walking about 40 minutes maybe 5 days a week (so no crazy exercise). I did cut out most fats, but still had a small hand full of walnuts or pecans and maybe 2 tablespoons of mixed seeds a day.
I have not read the MD book, so don't know all the details of the plan, but from what I have read and watched online, I was sort of following their way of eating. From my understanding the plant based diets are not calorie deficient, it is just difficult to get enough calories when you aren't eating much fat, so you have to eat quite a bit more in volume, which can be difficult for some. I did calculate my protein a few times, I can't remember the exact numbers but it was around 40 g a day. I do wish I had kept a better record of it all.

After some time eating this way I was feeling fantastic in most regards, but something was off, I couldn't really put my finger on what it was but I felt weak and like something was not right. My doctors here aren't big on testing, but I did eventually find one who did some basic checks and everything came back great, she put it down to stress. My fasting blood sugar started increasing slightly and I eventually went to a dietician, she was fine with the plant based diet but made some tweaks - adding fats, more protein and less fruit. She also suggested some more ready made foods, which I was not keen on. I started gaining weight and my sugar levels started going a bit haywire. She told me to keep at it, that I was just gaining muscle and things would settle down. I stuck to it for a few months, things didn't settle and I 'fell off the wagon' a bit.

I have recently been re diagnosed with type 1.5, I am still trying to get things stable with insulin, but would like to give the higher carb plan another chance!

I saw someone mention supplements - I know the MD guys do mention quite a few, like Amla, that are supposed to help support blood sugar health. I do recall seeing them mention that everyone should take B12 and then D as needed, but I don't think the plan is big on supplements.

I spent the first few months after I was diagnosed reading papers and researching (I was not working) but I didn't keep a file of evidence, so can only give my experience. Something I noticed though was that both high and low carb diets claim to work by excluding something from the diet, and then are evidenced by people saying look what happens when I reintroduce that banned thing. Kind of like if I go for a run, having never exercised and then claim to be exercise intolerant when I get tired. There is always more to it, and I do think everyone has to figure out what works for them - funny thing is I think we all know, deep down, but we have a hard time differentiating what we actually need from what we want as backed by 'evidence'.

Just to add, I have lost and gained rather large amounts of weight over the last few years, and do seem to have some level of insulin resistance, one doctor actually went so far as to call it double diabetes

Thank you for your post. However as an initially misdiagnosed type 1 and not type 2 at all I’m not sure how much I can take as relevant to a type 2. Weight loss might well have been a result of your misdiagnosis could it not?

What makes you and the dr think you also have insulin resistance?

 

[HSSS]

@Beating-My-Betes I wish we could see more first hand experiences with similar diets here, but it is not easy. I feel like many of the wfpb people are lobbed in with the vegan craziness which really detracts from whatever value they offer. I personally find the oils and processed foods problematic so my preference is to avoid them anyway - but each to their own! I hope your plans help you find the results you are looking for

@HSSS, Ah, I see my mistake, the predictability was impressive I thought my experience could shed some light on the possible misunderstandings of higher carb plant based diets and I would like to leave it here for anyone who may find it interesting or useful. I do not doubt some of my weight loss was because of being type 1.5, but I noticed a marked difference in how I lost weight when I was actually eating well and trying to lose it. My misdiagnosis also does not account for the weight gains. I had one doctor use HOMA-IR and multiple others diagnose insulin resistance based on symptoms and other issues I am dealing with. It makes sense relative to my experiences and responses. Please ignore my post if you do not find it relevant, and good luck with your ploughing

Type 1.5 is a variant of type 1, but distinguished by being slow onset from all I’ve read. It’s still an absolute lack of insulin as opposed to the relative lack (ie insufficient to meet the excessive needs) or the inability to utilise insulin as occurs in type 2. It’s very easy to confuse insulin resistance with type 1.5 (aka LADA). As you say though HOMA-IR (and cpeptide) testing is much more reliable at differentiating the two.

anyone avoiding processed foods, seed oils and making a determined effort to eat whole nutritious foods (plant or animal based) are likely to do better than when the same person eats total junk.

I agree weight gain is harder to explain and doesn’t fit the misdiagnosis as type 1 variants tend to lose weight rather than gain. it may have simply been too much food for your needs perhaps it was the extra carbs raising blood glucose and being stored as body fat. Who knows, I certainly don’t and you don’t seem to have been given and definitive answer either. An interesting conundrum for me, I would expect more concerning for you as the person living it. Perhaps you are indeed a rare double diabetic.

One month of keto isn’t really enough to undo undo type 2 and many of those that do feel awful are missing out on fats, electrolytes or hydration which would alleviate the problem.

Ive no problem with your post remaining, documenting your experiences, nor did I feel the need to ignore it. I’m not sure of your points about predictably or ploughing. I suspect they are not friendly or kind though so those I will ignore.

 

[Deleted member 532959]

@Beating-My-Betes I wish we could see more first hand experiences with similar diets here, but it is not easy. I feel like many of the wfpb people are lobbed in with the vegan craziness which really detracts from whatever value they offer. I personally find the oils and processed foods problematic so my preference is to avoid them anyway - but each to their own! I hope your plans help you find the results you are looking for

Processed can be used to describe a large range of things. Mashing some boiled potatoes is a process. Blending some berries with a banana is processed. These should be seen as different from a beyond burger,
As far as oils go, i guess it's down to personal preference. Might be worth avoiding oil heated at high-temperatures if you're wary. But adding a bit of sesame-oil to tofu in the last few seconds or adding some olive-oil to a salad, are an easy way to add calories for those struggling with calories or who just like the taste.

Of course, there's no obligation. Within general recommendations, they give 30g total-fat as an upper-limit. Within that, it's easy to bump up the calories with avocado, nuts and seeds.

When I do the month of the low-fat thing, I will also be avoiding oils. But then i have no problems hitting my caloric requirements

 

[Deleted member 532959]

@Beating-My-Betes, processed is perhaps not the best word, as chewing by such standards is processing, but maybe we could rather say it is the (mass) manufactured stuff that I am inclined to avoid

Indeed!

I've been eating so much processed stuff this month. I'm so over it

 

[HSSS]

@HSSS Yes, type 1.5 can result in an absolute lack like type 1, but it often begins as an insufficiency and can be accompanied by insulin resistance, hence often being misdiagnosed as type 2. I have had trouble getting answers, and it is concerning for me, I find doctors very limited by what they believe they know - it is not so cut and dry for most of us.

I definitely would not say one month of keto is enough to make conclusions on and I don't claim to. I know it gave me great results with my meter and I am sure a lot of the ill feeling was the quick dropping sugar levels in combination with animal fats and meats that I was not used to eating, but one month was enough for me to know it is not something I was in any way inclined to. I would definitely agree whole foods are the best starting point either way!

No unfriendliness intended, I realised after I had made my post that I should have added more about insulin resistance and sensitivity, or how it relates to all but I chose not to and assumed it would be the first response given, hence predicted. Ploughing was in reference to your original post, you said you were "exploring the concept before ploughing deeper into the science" I was just wishing you well with that!

Well you’re the first LADA/1.5 I’ve spoke to or read about that also has a confirmation of insulin resistance. The rest were assumed to have it hence the type 2 assumption in the first place. Rarely are apparent type 2 tested for insulin cpeptide or antibodies until things go wrong or inexplicably fail to improve. Even more rarely for HOMA-IR. I suspect even more are never correctly diagnosed and simply become a “type 2 on insulin”. As I said - slow onset, normal become “insufficient” which to me is the same as “lacking” in meaning. For some, eventually, a total lack/insufficiency. It does seem many initially misdiagnosed suffer from a lack of knowledge in medical staff about this present of diabetes.
To be fair I started this thread more than 6 months ago and didn’t remember a specific word I used back then as there’s been a few in between and I am sadly not a mind reader (I’d be rich if I were) but I am pleased the comments were not as I initially read them to be. Thank you for clarifying.

 

[Antje77]

Well you’re the first LADA/1.5 I’ve spoke to or read about that also has a confirmation of insulin resistance.

The most recent letter from my endo to my GP in my records says " ... wants to try metformin, possible insulin resistance". It hasn't been specifically tested but judging from the amount of insulin I need (114 units of basal, anywhere between 18 and 70 units of bolus over the day which is more than a typical T1/LADA needs) on a fairly low carb diet, IR makes sense, especially as I'm overweight too.

I've been needing less insulin over the past week, since starting the metformin, which may be coincidence but more likely is a sign of the metformin doing something for my IR.

 

[Member496333]

A primary action of Metformin is to discourage the liver from secreting excessive glucose so you could expect a slightly lower basal requirement. Not sure it would make much difference to bolus?

 

[HSSS]

The most recent letter from my endo to my GP in my records says " ... wants to try metformin, possible insulin resistance". It hasn't been specifically tested but judging from the amount of insulin I need (114 units of basal, anywhere between 18 and 70 units of bolus over the day which is more than a typical T1/LADA needs) on a fairly low carb diet, IR makes sense, especially as I'm overweight too.

I've been needing less insulin over the past week, since starting the metformin, which may be coincidence but more likely is a sign of the metformin doing something for my IR.

Well maybe two now then. Happy to learn and be corrected. Though I’m sure you’d rather it wasn’t a possibility for you. As you say a “typical” LADA doesn’t have the responses you do though so it seems you are a rarer breed than most. I’m sure there are others and I did acknowledge double diabetes is possible. The same way theoretically there’s nothing stopping a type 2 later get type 1seeing as we don’t exactly know the triggers for all cases.

In fact, as I type so it’s not thought through, I’m now wondering if that’s the order it needs to happen in early LADA ie type 2/prediabetic with insulin resistance followed by beta cell failure. How else would an early LADA not yet on insulin become insulin resistant with ever decreasing amounts of said insulin if it hadn’t already happened. (Obviously once on exogenous insulin then that desensitisation could begin then and afterwards). Oh it’s late and my head is spinning now and I can’t make sense of it. I’ll come back tomorrow and see if I can work out what I’m saying or if anyone else has.