More Support, less Advice for Newbies

But surely if someone has already been given and started taking metformin or other drugs then fasting for 24 hours would be dangerous?

lucylocket61 said:

I HAVENT said that. I have recommended the message in Daisy1's post, which tells people to test. Do not put words into my mouth (or fingers)

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So you didn't post this?
The ones i am talking about start from saying you must test or you wont know what is what, and must stop all of the basic staple starches the person is eating.

That is not you telling other forum members what to write?

ALL - I was interested in letting this discussion play out but it seems to be descending into a sniping match.

I appreciate your differing points of view but KEEP IT CIVIL!

lucylocket61 said:

That is one sentence, all one thought - the starting testing and stopping all staple starches all in one fell swoop. I apologise if I was unclear, I can see how this sentence could be read two ways.

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Thanks for clearing this up. This is the problem with forums and the written word. Our meaning is not always clear. When we read what someone else has written we interpret it based on our own experiences.

@lucy-locket61

I have to agree with you on all of this. It looks like people are bombarded with 'lchf' and 'testing' advce as soon as they say hello. A few words of empathy and support should come first, then maybe a request for more information about their meds etc, and then pointers to helpful info from daisy and the website. I understand why people are so passionate about lchf and it does seem to work for many, but information given should be considered and balanced.

woodywhippet61 said:

So you didn't post this?
The ones i am talking about start from saying you must test or you wont know what is what, and must stop all of the basic staple starches the person is eating.

That is not you telling other forum members what to write?

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The thing that makes me really uncomfortable is anyone, particularly newbies, being told “ you MUST do ...........” which I think is too akin to a dangerously limited and dogmatic one size fits all mantra. I have no problem with people saying that a particular approach is helpful for a significant proportion of people with the particular type of diabetes under discussion, as long as it is accompanied with the caveat that the approach wont necessarily work for everyone and there are other approaches to research / consider.

lucylocket61 said:

As I understand it, her message is the "official" message given to people and consists of words like 'may' and 'some' and uses phrases like 'Different people respond differently to different types of food. What works for one person may not work so well for another. ' rather than the type of message which I am concerned about which tells people to ditch all starchy carbs, get down to below 50g or carbs or you will not be able to control you blood sugars. Can you see its the tone and black and whiteness that is the issue? It give a starting point for the reader to explore their own threshold and what effects it.

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Ok, but in your original post you say we should not immediately tell newcomers about the benefits of a low-carb diet, but should wait "until we know them better, know their situation more clearly, and have befriended them". Yet Daisy1's information packet for newcomers (often after just a few posts) clearly includes information on the benefits of a change in diet (i.e. reducing carb intake or trying low GI foods) on blood glucose levels, but no warnings about reducing carbs while on insulin or insulin affecting meds. Personally, I see no issue with the advice to type 2's on metformin only or no meds to eliminate all starchy carbs.

Perhaps daisy1's information post needs to be updated.

NoCrbs4Me said:

Ok, but in your original post you say we should not immediately tell newcomers about the benefits of a low-carb diet, but should wait "until we know them better, know their situation more clearly, and have befriended them". Yet Daisy1's information packet for newcomers (often after just a few posts) clearly includes information on the benefits of a change in diet (i.e. reducing carb intake or trying low GI foods) on blood glucose levels, but no warnings about reducing carbs while on insulin or insulin affecting meds. Personally, I see no issue with the advice to type 2's on metformin only or no meds to eliminate all starchy carbs.

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Lower carb and eliminating all starchy carbs are very far from being the same thing

As per part of my signature, things are only easier after we have learned them. Not only do we cope with diagnosis then a possible change in lifestyle choices or treatments but then we learn how best to advise. I made some stonking mistakes at the beginning and had to change my approach but my point is that that that was another thing I had to learn. We are all different but it is that very difference that serves this particular support group so well.

archersuz said:

But surely if someone has already been given and started taking metformin or other drugs then fasting for 24 hours would be dangerous?

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The current @daisy message suggests low carb anyway across the entire forum. It needs to be crystal clear that because low carb has the same impact as taking medications, then doing both together without adjusting the drug regime is dangerous so changes need to be done in conjunction with your doctor. Haven't seen the @daisy message lately but I assume it references this somehow already as that is already true.

I think there should be a very clear questionaire which newcomers are asked to complete. As far as I am aware metformin does not give rise to hypos with or without food. I think there is in any event a clear distinction for those who arrive without already having been put on any drugs yet.

Where the newcomer is on no medication at all, they should get the simple message -
T2 It is quite possible that you may be able to avoid all medication - by - a swift change in your eating regime. We suggest you fast for 24 hours, and use that time to google low carb diets, implementing the changes to your diet on recommencing eating. Please look at our low carb program , and at other resources on the internet - eg dietdoctor.com. If you google LCHF or ketogenic diets, you will obtain a great deal of information as to how this condition can be controlled with some simple changes to your diet.

We suggest you implement this program first, coupled with purchasing a testing meter so that you can see how quickly your blood sugars have changed for two weeks before commencing drug therapy. Many of our members have seen such enormous progress during that time that they realise that they can manage their condition without any drugs at all. Please be sure to read our testimonials section to see the success stories and feel free to question our members about their experiences . We hope that you will be pleasantly surprised to find that your recent diagnosis paves the way to a much healthier and happier future than you ever thought possible.

I guess that's my " ideal world" message. Having now helped a number of people overcome their own health issues with the change in diet, including someone who had been insulin dependent for 14 years. I do feel rather strongly about this !

lucylocket61 said:

I think that I see a difference between the approach in Daisy1's post and some of the other approaches. @Boo1979 said"I have no problem with people saying that a particular approach is helpful for a significant proportion of people with the particular type of diabetes under discussion as long as it is accompanied with the caveat that the approach wont necessarily work for everyone and there are other approaches to research / consider." and that is a far better way of expressing what i mean than my efforts seem to have been. So often that caveat is missing, as is the openness and encouragement for the newbie to test and explore for themselves, while also being informed of some options to try.

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Ok, but your original post says we shouldn't give any dietary advice "until we know them better, know their situation more clearly, and have befriended them" and that we should only provide "support" "until we know them better, know their situation more clearly, and have befriended them." Yet you like daisy1's posts to newcomers that is heavy on dietary advice (despite no caveats about the dangers of reducing carbs while on insulin or insulin affecting meds) and light on support.

CherryAA said:

We suggest you fast for 24 hours, and use that time to google low carb diets, implementing the changes to your diet on recommencing eating.

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I strongly believe that newly diagnosed don't need the advice to fast for 24 hours! I was already extremely upset and heading towards depression and I think that would have tipped me over the edge!

CherryAA said:

The current @daisy message suggests low carb anyway across the entire forum. It needs to be crystal clear that because low carb has the same impact as taking medications, then doing both together without adjusting the drug regime is dangerous so changes need to be done in conjunction with your doctor. Haven't seen the @daisy message lately but I assume it references this somehow already as that is already true.

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No, there's no discussion of reducing carbs while on insulin or insulin affecting meds in daisy1's weclome post..