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need info re BG levels. obesetype2 and low carbing

S

sparkles

Well-Known Member
Messages
170
Hi there.
I am new to diabetes uk but have had type 2 for a few years now. I am influenced by a book ‘Natural approaches to Diabetes’ given as a birthday present. It’s author recommends Low Carb and particularly the ATKINS Diet. So I read ‘Atkins for Life’and was inspired to try the Atkins approach. to losing weight.


I am also menopausal in my early fifties and have had a bad skin complaint for two years for which I am currently taking antibiotics (and it seems to be clearing slowly!) My partner keeps us on his low income, part time wage as I no longer work due to ill health. My point here is that we have very little money for food. But on reading,I felt there was still enough scope with Atkins foundation level foods I could afford, for me to attempt this diet. So I started tentatively about a week ago.

I am type two and was on metformin but took myself off it against medical advice as I couldn’t handle bad reactions to it any more Rightly or wrongly (because of that bad experience) I resisted being put on anything else. My last HbA1c (which I think means my average BG reading over the last 3 months )was 10.5 and poor. I am a REAL FOODIE. I would rank food as one of the most plesant things in my life and I have struggled to accept that it is my relationship with food (so healthy for me emotionally) which has been making me ill and is set to continue to undermine my health unless I can change that relationship. THe trouble is because I love that relationship I dont WANT to lose it. I believe food does me good emotionally and it buffers me through life, I have been reluctant to change and to some extent still am balking it.

However, prompted by the books above, I am ‘going for it’. I tentatively started the foundation stage of the atkins diet about a week ago. I weighed in at 109.5 kg. I am not weighing myself daily but do know I am losing weight. I can see that! But I have seen a remarkable drop in my BG levels over this first week. ( I am home testing at least 2 x a day. )

My current understanding is that normal BG levels range between 4-7mmol/L. And starting a week ago at 11.2mmol/L they have dropped as low as 3.3mmol/L.

My worry is that 3.3 mmol/L is below the normal target range of 4-7mmol/L. So is that safe for me to drop so low? And how low can I safely go? My blood Glusose levels are still fluctuating as they do normally for everyone throughout the day -but in general they are dropping at a rate of knots.

I’ve searched the books and the net and your forum to try and see is this is safe for me but cant work it out. Also my understanding is that Ketosis only kicks in when BG levels drop below about 3.5 so surely I’m thinking -I need my BG to go below average (4--7mml/L) if I want to burn fat from my midriff due to ketosis.

Hi to you all here since this is my first post. if anyone in this forum can help me understand what to expect with BG levels on a low carb (ketosis) type diet and what is safe and normal in this respect. Whether there are pitfalls and if so what to look out for and any actions I should take if there are problems associated with low BG levels when doing low carb, I’d be so grateful. I am sold on the low carb diet over the low fat one. I’m not into diets of any sort but if I have to go that route this one certainly lets me feel less like Im being punished via my own favourite salve in life: Food.

SPARKLES
 
Hi Sparkles and welcome to the forum :) Someone will be alone soon to answer your specific questions but in the meantime here is some information written by the Forum Monitors which is routinely given to new members, even though I know you are not newly diagnosed.


Here is the advice that Ken and I, as Forum Monitors, usually give to newly diagnosed Diabetics. We hope that these few ideas gained through experience help you to gain control and give you some understanding of Diabetes. This forum doesn't always follow the recommended dietary advice, you have to work out what works for you as we are all different.

It's not just 'sugars' you need to avoid, diabetes is an inability to process glucose properly. Carbohydrate converts, in the body, to glucose. So it makes sense to reduce the amount of carbohydrate that you eat which includes sugars.

For more information on CARBOHYDRATE see here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=20306

This is NOT a low carb diet suggestion, just a reduction in your intake of carbohydrate. You have to decide yourself how much of a reduction will keep your blood glucose levels in control.

The main carbs to avoid OR reduce are the complex or starchy carbohydrates such as bread, potatoes, pasta, rice, starchy root veg and also any flour based products. The starchy carbs all convert 100% to glucose in the body and raise the blood sugar levels significantly.

If you are on Insulin you may find that reducing the carb intake also means that you can reduce your dose of insulin. This can help you to keep weight gain down as Insulin tends to make you put on weight and eventually cause insulin resistance. This should be done slowly so as not to cause hypos.

The way to find out how different foods affect you is to do regular daily testing and keep a food diary for a couple of weeks. If you test just before eating, then two hours after eating, you will see the effect of certain foods on your blood glucose levels. Some foods, which are slow acting carbohydrates, are absorbed more slowly so you may need to test three or even four hours later to see the effect that these have on your blood glucose levels.

Buy yourself a carb counter book (you can get these on-line) and you will be able to work out how much carbs you are eating, when you test, the reading two hours after should be roughly the same as the before eating reading, if it is then that meal was fine, if it isn’t then you need to check what you have eaten and think about reducing the portion size of carbs.

When you are buying products check the total carbohydrate content, this includes the sugar content. Do not just go by the amount of sugar on the packaging as this is misleading to a diabetic.


As for a tester, try asking the nurse/doctor and explain that you want to be proactive in managing your own diabetes and therefore need to test so that you can see just how foods affect your blood sugar levels. Hopefully this will work ! Sometimes they are not keen to give Type 2’s the strips on prescription, (in the UK) but you can but try!!

For TIPS FOR STRIPS see here:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=19002#p173253

If you are an Insulin user in theory you should have no problem getting test strips.

The latest 2011 NICE guidelines for Bg levels are as follows:
Fasting (waking and before meals).......between 4 - 7 mmol/l...(Type 1 & 2)
2 hrs after meals........................no more than 8.5 mmol/l.....( Type 2)

2hrs after meals......................... no more than 9 mmol/l ......(Type 1)

If you are able to keep the post meal numbers lower, so much the better.

It also helps if you can do at least 30 minutes moderate exercise a day, it can be split into 10 min sessions to start with. It doesn't have to be strenuous.

The above is just general advice and it is recommended that you discuss with your HCP before making any changes. You can also ask questions on the forum on anything that is not clear.

Finally a few QUESTIONS TO ASK AT DIABETES CLINIC.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=17091



Sue/Ken.
Click to expand...
 
Hi,

I'm reading Natural Health & Weight Loss by Barry Groves. He recommends 50-60 grams of carbs a day and the cheapest meats you can buy - usually the fattiest and offal. He even suggests that you should ask for a discount on meat that is really, really fatty in the butchers - just no processed meat. He is British and you don't need to buy his book as all the info is on http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/about- ... nions.html along with interesting stuff on cholesterol. Cheaper than Atkins - we live on Income Support so know how hard it can be.

Good Luck

Ailz
 
Welcome Sparkle! You're gonna fit in very well around here. Lot's of us on lo-carb regimes, because they work! :wink:

Re: your relationship with food. That is not necessarily what caused your diabetes - try not to get too hung up on it.

The good news is, there are lo-carb alternatives for most foods, and being a foodie, you'll be keen to get in the kitchen and make use of the WONDERFUL recipes that are posted all over the internet.

Good luck to you!
 
Hi Ailz, Great to meet you and thanks for the link and good to know another low-income person trying to battle all this.

Hi Patch, Thanks very much for your encouragement and welcome. Yes I keep seeing these low carb recipes but at the moment Im in foundation stage of Atkins diet and many of the recipes include things I cant have just yet until I get a wider range of foods in the later stages of the diet.
But hey, its great to know these recipes are at hand and some do look very tasty. -that makes me feel its ok, I can do this.

Still waiting for answers about how low its safe to let ones BG level go when type 2 and low-carbing. Should I be worried if it drops below 4 mml/L?
Sparkles
 
If it drops below 4 then you're probably very hungry and late with eating. Try to eat regularly - don't let yourself get 'starving' or you'll eat something sugary just to bring your bg back up - which fires off insulin - drops your bg and you're back needing to eat. Eat 3 meals a day with 2 snacks if you like - nuts are a good snack as they have protein and fat - but only a few as they are high calorie. Don't do what I did for years and mistake thirst for hunger. Listen to your body - if you need to eat and it isn't a mealtime, don't wait, have something low carb.

Cheers
Ailz
 
Hi Ailz,
Thanks again Ailz. but my real confusion lies in what I read on the net: that ketosis only really happens when BG drops below 3.5. The aim as I understand it (re the Atkins diet) is to enter ketosis ( BG below3.5) surely this means I have to let my BG drop lower than 3.5. But how low is it safe to go? Also in foundation stage unfortunately I am not allowed nuts.

When I got my first real low BG reading of 3.3 the other night just before bedtime I freaked a bit (not knowing the answer to my question of how low BG it is safe to go.) and because of that and in view of having to go the whole night (meaning BG would probably go even lower) I made half a cup of porridge sweetened with a little apple and a couple of raisins and ate that.

As a result the next morning my BG was raised (compared to the same reading at the same time on previous days.)
So was that a backwards shift in dietry terms? I think sort of....
and did eating the porridge mean that through the night I didn't achieve ketosis ?
(I suppose, as long as I keep losing weight that doesnt matter so much..? But I do like the idea of losing the weight fast so that I feel free to move on to the next stage of the Atkins plan and am able to add back a few of the foods I am not yet allowed to eat. Giving me more scope for pleasure from food.)
Hope this helps people to help me find my answers... please dont give up.
...and is it true that ketosis only happens when BG drops below 3.5ish? after all you can read all sorts of rubbish on the net.
Sparkles.
 
ketosis is when your body is caused when your body is burning fat rather than sugar. Going under about 20-30 carbs a day would do it. As long as you are 'feeding' your body - fat, protein, carbs - probably in that order you should be okay. If you get any symptoms of a hypo - which is when - I think - your body has nothing available to burn - are sweating, shaking, unable to think or get your words out, feeling faint and/or sick - any or all of these. If you get these symptoms then you need to eat something straight away.

These symptoms are usually caused when your brain can't get enough fuel. Yet, from what I've read, your brain works better on fat burning, so it 'shouldn't occur, but, hey, I'm no expert. You can only go on how you feel. Like I say go on the symptoms - I've been told by my doctor that going below 3.5 isn't necessarily a hypo as a type 2 - it depends on the fuel your body is burning. Carbs put up your blood glucose and stimulate the release of insulin - fat doesn't - protein doesn't put up your blood glucose, but does stimulate insulin. Insulin is the fat storing hormone. Don't kick up your blood glucose or insulin and you're okay - or so I read. Like I say you can only take it by what YOUR body tells you. We're all individual.

Just watch out for the warning signs (by the way my guy says ketones in the urine is overdoing it).

Cheers
Ailz
 
Hi sparkles and welcome to the forum, I cant help you with the ketosis question as I have never needed to go that low to control my T2, but there are lots of members here who do that I am sure will be able to give your their input :D
 
As far as I'm aware, there is no need to attempt to get your BG levels into the 3s to achieve ketosis. As long as you're sticking to the induction phase you will lose weight - don't stress yourself about extra-low BG levels or about ketosis. Some people never show signs of ketosis, as Atkins quite clearly states in his 'New Diet Revolution'.

I'm doing the Atkins induction phase at the moment, and my BG levels are very rarely below 5. However, my last HbA1c was 5.5, which is pretty good (I'm Type 2). I just don't check for ketones any more - I know I'm losing weight. I hardly ever eat more than 70g carb a day, even when I'm not following induction.

Just follow the diet, relax about it, and get weighed once a week. Let us know how you go on!

Viv 8)
 
Hi all and thanks again for your wisdom sharing.

Ailz, yes that all makes sense to me and yes our bodies are as individual as our selves. I guess it makes sense that since I’m the one steering my own body - I should make my own decisions about my low BG levels based on how ‘I’ am feeling. But then, as the article Catherinecherub linked to points out -someone who allows their BG to drop too low is probably going to be the last person to see the warning signs; as cognition and co-ordination may well be impaired as a result of their low BG levels. I guess this is what I was afraid of when I wrote my original post.

Viviennem, thanks, I tried to get that book from the library. There were tons of copies about 5 yrs ago apparently but they’ve since got rid of them all, so I made do with ‘Atkins for life.’ and I still don’t know if I’ve missed anything important from the earlier New Diet Revolution book.
However, I am amazed at how fast the diet is producing positive results for me. I’ve been up and down quite a bit mood-wise since starting my diet almost a week ago -but I am also recovering from a mental breakdown in January and constantly having to stave off depression anyway, so I see it as par for the course and I wont let my mood swings influence my new diet routine.

Unlike any other low fat diet I’ve ever tried -(and that only a few times in my life because I hate the idea of denying myself freedom with food. (I’m in my fifty’s))- I am just not ever experiencing the feeling of starvation type hunger on this Atkins diet. I do occasionally feel mildly hungry but its usually just when its reaching time for me to eat anyway. So I hope it continues like this. I don’t calorie count either as I don’t have a calorie counter and I’m just sticking to the portion sizes and making sure I eat 5 (½ cup cooked veg or 1 cup raw veg) portions of salad and veg , along with a variety of proteins and ‘good’ fats each day. Also for the first time in my life I’m reading about health issues and trying to understand the things I’m discovering , like ‘good’ ‘bad and ‘trans’ fats, ketosis and ketoacidosis and the pros and cons of low carb versus low fat diets etc and why some individuals (like you here) appear to be ahead of the government and the heath service. (my opinion)

My very first 'Atkins diet effort' a week ago was to go shopping just for vegetables. I spent £20 just on veg- (that’s a lot for me!) thinking if veg is going to form the majority of what I’m going to eat for the next few weeks I want variety and I want enough!! (Actually, in true 'me' form I bought too much (-veg goes off Duh!) but I guess I’ll learn. ) I trawled the market, the high street grocers and the supermarkets looking for good buys and deals on veg and I bought a couple of items I’ve never tried before (fennel and chicory). I did enjoy that shop though, being a bit more adventurous, trying new things and looking for colour while trying to close my eyes to the price.

Over this week though as I’ve battled with the reality of the necessary portion sizes ( mine have always been three or four times that!) and thinking of all the breads, cakes, biscuits I’ve already eliminated -yet I’m NOT HUNGRY. I’m realising the £s will be saved in future if I keep this up and that leads me to realise that through that saving I will feel able to afford some occasional new style (healthy) luxuries. So I’m excited now at the prospect of trying new sugar free, whole food, new foods, and low carb commodities in the future EVEN if my financial situation hasn’t improved. Its got kind of a feel of adventure about it. Can’t be true. This is not my idea of dieting.

Well I can see that you are mainly low carb converts too so perhaps you all see it like this too?

How are you finding Atkins induction phase Viviennem? It seems from what you say that its all working well for you too. Have you followed Atkins before and returned now because of weight gain -or is it your first time too? I don’t want to get too hung up on my weight loss so I told myself I wont weigh myself until the end of the first two weeks of induction and I have another week to go. But yes, I’ll let you know the outcome when I know.
Thanks for helping me to overcome my worries and fears re BG levels and for the warm welcome and advice sharing.
Sparkles.
 
Hi Sparkles

I first did Atkins in 2004/05 for 18 months, stayed on Induction the whole time (which is fine if it suits you) and lost 5.5 stone. Then a variety of things happened, carb and wine crept back into my diet, and on came the weight!

I was diagnosed Type II in April of last year, with a fasting blood glucose of 9 and HbA1c at 6.5. 3 months on Atkins and my next results were fasting 6.5, HbA1c 5.6. Unfortunately this time I'm not keping off the wine like I should, so I've only lost 40lb in the past year. Also I'm highly insulin resistant, which makes weight loss more difficult, I believe. But I'm getting there!

Somewhere on the Low Carb Forum is a thread called 'Viv's Modified Atkins Diet' which is the version I work to, adapted out of 'New Diet Revolution'. (There should be copies of that available on Amazon if you need it). I'm afraid I still haven't figured out how to give links, but if you go on to the Low-carb Forum and type 'Modified' in the search box, you should get it. Read through the whole thread - there are some very useful comments.

Don't be afraid to eat meat, fish, dairy and fat (if you can take it) - you have to get your calories from somewhere, even if you don't need to count them! Just make sure your food is as fresh and unprocessed as possible, and stick to the limits given on the diet (eg, no more than 4oz/100g cheese per day).

I love the diet, and it gives me lots of energy and confidence. The more it works, the more positive I fell. Also my cholesterol levels and blood pressure get better and better the more I keep on with it. The only drawback I have is avoiding constipation, but I'm finding flax seed oil capsules very useful for that. Drink plenty of water. Also try to go for a walk every day - that should help with the mood swings, too, it does with me.

If only I could keep off the dratted wine! :oops:

Viv 8)
 
Hi Serena
Great idea! We have a lot of charity shops in town so I’ll keep my eyes open for Atkins books. While on the subject of books I have been reading reviews for Barry Groves books that Ailz mentioned earlier and came across another book of his called ‘Trick or Treat’ which is about how the multinational pharmaceutical and big food companies control and influence health services and education of health professionals, who then unwittingly sometimes trick us into making ourselves ill so that they can treat us. This book had a lot of great reviews. Several of the ones I read also mentioned another Author, similarly rated, called Gary Taubes who has a blog on his website at Gary Taubes.com which I’ve been dipping into. He set it up to promote his book Why We Get Fat and What To Do About it (Dec 2010) and I can see he is championing the low carb diet. I read a few articles there but I found one (What if its all been a big fat lie) which really put things in perspective for me. (You go to the site and click on the biography tab, then run down the right hand side to books and click on ‘What if its all been a big fat lie.’ to read it. )

I expect most of you know this stuff though… I am new to all of this, I never cared to look into stuff like this before. But I do know that on the odd times I’ve tried conventional low fat diet I have lasted no more than a week, been very unhappy and piled the weight back soon after -leaving me heavier than I was before I started and feeling an awful failure to myself and everyone else.

Hi Viviennem,
You did so well to lose 5.5 stones- that’s amazing -at least in my eyes! And I can see they do say that Atkins is for life… Hmmm the lure of those dratted carbs. I’m virtually a tee totaller but my partner is a recovering alcoholic and if you like the stuff (alcohol) I can see its just another lure. I have enough gravitational pull just with chocolate and cakes. But I feel so good now I’m finally mentally saying goodbye to them and losing the cravings for them.

So do you think you are more insulin resistant now than you were when you first did Atkins in 2004/5? Or has the novelty of the diet worn off or are you just more comfortable to weight at a slower rate? If you think you are more insulin resistant now do you think the carbs you ate after 2004/5 are to blame for the increased insulin resistance? Just curious.

I did read that diet thread I think.. Did you give a copy of it to a brother? It was good I remember thinking. Ill try to find it again sometime and read the whole thread like you suggest. Yes good advice, I am staying away from anything processed and eating a ton of fresh greens, reds and yellows!! I had a yummy mushroom onion and courgette omlette with four very thin slices of cheese for breakfast /lunch or Brunch as we call it. And tonight Im all prepared with a big tuna stirfry. I will forgo the rice though and just have a plate of the veg n tuna topping. The last few days Im letting my water intake slip a bit so I must try to bring that back up. My sister tells me she did Atkins but now shes doing another low carb diet because she suffered with constipation on Atkins. So far Im ok..but I think its cause I fill a big jug of water in the morning and try to make sure I’ve drunk it all by night time. Keeping off wine would be no trouble for me.. Chocolate will always be my enemy no 1. But forgive me… I mustn’t think about it!
Good luck with your diet!
Sparkles.
 
Hi Sparkles

I find both Gary Taubes and Barry Groves worth reading, though many people think they are both charlatans, just out to make money. I prefer to make my own mind up.

Re my present weight loss rate - I definitely think that it was going back on to a 'normal' diet with plenty of carbs, when I fell off Atkins in 2005, that pushed my weight back up and tipped me over into Type 2 diabetes. I was diagnosed in April 2010, and I think it was caught very early, so I've been able to get pretty good control using the diet. I am also on Metformin at my own request, because I've heard it can help with weight loss, and also it has other protective effects.

Though I'm a bit depressed about my weight loss being slower than it was the first time, I'm not too worried. I'm focused on my BG levels instead - they are the most important things to keep in control of, and the weight will follow of its own accord and in its own time.

This time Atkins is for life - except maybe at Christmas! :lol:

Viv 8)
 
Hi Viviennem,
Lucky they caught your type 2 early then and I’m registering slowly that the changes I am making have to be sustainable and I must stick to them for life. Just don’t know where I’m finding this determination ....but I’m not complaining. I think you are spot on, prioritising BG over weight loss, after all spiralling blood glucose is likely to cause lots of complications. Weight loss is more of a cosmetic thing I think, except that the two are obviously related, but as long as the weight is coming off and not going on.
SPARKLES
 
Hi,

Thanks again to Serena51... I went to the car boot today and was delighted to pick up an Atkins Diet Cookbook for 50p and couldnt believe my luck when minutes later I got the New diet revolution book also for 50p and both in pristine condition.
:D :D Sparkles.
 
Good for you, Sparkles!

Read the 'Diet Revolution' through carefully, and try not to be put off by his writing style. I haven't tried the Cookbook, so I'd be interested to hear what you think of it. Enjoy your afternoon!

Viv 8)
 
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