New Paradigm For Insulin Resistance

[LittleGreyCat]

One further thought; if in fact T2 diabetes is all about the efficiency of fat cells, and the effects of over loading them, then this might explain other things.

Roy Taylor's theory about everyone having a "fat threshold" might be down to the ability of fat cells to process glucose and running out of spare capacity.

This would explain how people who are obese can go on a crash diet (which RT has confirmed targets a fatty liver) and then reverse T2 symptoms. A percentage loss of weight can reverse T2 symptoms whilst the person is still carrying a lot of fat. Perhaps this is because all those large and extra fat cells provide much more overall processing capacity for glucose even though the individual cells are impaired.

This in turn would tie in with skinnier people still having T2 problems; they perhaps have fewer active fat cells and so less overall processing capacity. In turn they have to at least partially deplete most of their fat cells (and lose more weight even though apparently of "normal weight") until the processing capacity of their fat cells is sufficient to manage the BG.

This in turn might mean that if you are carrying a lot of active fat cells, you are more easily able to manage your BG levels by partially depleting them to match the spare capacity to your glucose intake.

New strategy; put on two stone then take off one?
I wish.

 

[ickihun]

Can tight clothes compress the fat cells?
Can the body be squashed by a foetus?
Ive heard old wives stating 'she was only little inside'.
Maybe there is only room inside for so much fat (internal fat). Diabetes is glucose running wild (left in blood) due to full capacity.
Conversion missed. Not triggered properly.
My liver dumps on me numerous times a day. Even on low carb.

 

[lindisfel]

With this idea, we who have R.H. go up to peak glucose on carbs easily because our insulin response is delayed. We then over stimulate insulin production and fill our fat cells and fail to put glucose into more necessary places. Our fat cells differentially rob the rest of our bodies when we stimulate them with carbs and high insulin. When blood glucose drops we are still cramming our fat cells because our insulin has be overstimulated, hence we start to hypo. Slow feeding from fat on a keto diet is the only option for us because carbs poison us with insulin!
If we could mimic the bi-phase insulin response by having a small shot of insulin when we first eat, we potentially may not have RH on carbs and therefore produce far less main phase insulin! (as the theory goes, those with R.H. lack the normal initial phase insulin response from the pancreas)
regards
Derek

Ps. At a BMI of 22 on LCHF it looks as if I am only going to get rid of my NAFLD by having a few weeks on Prof Collins diet?

 

[Lamont D]

I like that, I think we are getting somewhere!

 

[Brunneria]

Ps. At a BMI of 22 on LCHF it looks as if I am only going to get rid of my NAFLD by having a few weeks on Prof Collins diet?

@lindisfel @LittleGreyCat @AndBreathe

Actually, I am interested in this too.
I believe LittleGreyCat recently said (was it on this thread?) that certain diets are better for eliminating fatty liver than others. I would be really interested to know which diets, why, and what the evidence is?

I've always understood differently, and that it is weight loss, not the speed of it, or the nature of the diet, that took us under our personal fat threshold. Although part of PRofessor Taylor's work is investigating if 'reversal' is more difficult the more years a person has been diagnosed T2.

Am happy to be wrong on this, but I am wondering if there is just a feeling that because the ND uses shakes, the idea has come about that that shakes and fast weight loss are better? or that 800 cal diets and fast weight loss are better. But I have only ever seen the theory discussed, rather than the evidence.

I have tagged AndBreathe because I know she has posted about this before, but I cannot remember the details.

Sorry to be vague folks - only just woke up! lol.

 

[AndBreathe]

Blimey - This thread took some ploughing through. There's lots in it, and really a bit all over the shop, but then, sometimes discussions do that.

Anyway, just a very small interjection from me.

I've gone back through the correspondence I had with Professor Taylor 2015. I have no correspondence later than Feb 2015, so I can only comment on his responses and theories, relating to my personal circumstances at that time.

Briefly; Professor Taylor believes everyone has a Personal Fat Threshold, which in individual, and there is little, as I understand it, to aid prediction of where that lies at the moment. Anyone having watched any of his presentations will have seen his bicycle analogy on what arises when we are unable to metabolise our blood sugars in what would be considered a "normal" way. His lectures can be found in various places online if anyone hasn't watched them. For anyone who hasn't seen his analogy, it's worth listening to at as it's a very simple explanation that makes sense to me, but ten I'm a visualiser.

I didn't follow the ND, and indeed it only came to my attention a little while after diagnosis and I was already on a path which was returning me good results. The prospect of several weeks on shakes really didn't appeal either, but that's a digression.

In essence, summarising the various emails, he confirmed that in his view the weight/visceral fat loss was the important factor, rather than an specific methodology or pace. Given he had my summary data, his statement to me was that maintaining weight loss would likely be critical to me, although of course, neither of us know at which point I crossed my PFT, and there's no way of backward testing that without recrossing it. I'll pass on that, thanks!

Professor Taylor has been quoted in various places as saying we need only lose 1gr of pancreatic fat in order to reverse our diabetes. Personally, I view that as a quote without context, and interpret it as needing to lose that 1gr of pancreatic fat that breeches the PFT, as opposed to 1gr in absolute terms.

Obviously, I don't have RH, although some of my blood glucose drops can be pretty swift, but I call that efficient, rather than problematic. I know I got very lucky in all of this with the results I managed to achieve with what appears to have been a fraction of the effort other people have had to deploy to make any headway. Perhaps it is on that basis that I find it easier to keep my views fairly simply. Who knows.

Whilst many people have used the ND/whole food ND/8 week sugar diet (which is broadly similar to the ND), or even IF to achieve their end game to the point of transition onto new-normal eating patterns, but along the wayI don't think I have seen anyone who achieved a repeated normo-glycaemic HbA1c score, without medication, without some degree of weightloss. Some remain heavier than a "normal BMI", but that just suggests their PFT is higher than others.

There are those, like Richard Doughty who breeched their PFTs within a very brief few days 11 to be precise. His story is here:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/may/12/type-2-diabetes-diet-cure

I'm certain that ramble doesn't address any new paradigm, but my simple mind likes to have simple focus points.

 

[LittleGreyCat]

Briefly (and it a while since I checked) I think it went something like:

1. Before bariatric surgery, need to shrink the liver. [So you can find the stomach.]
2. Crash diet - very low calorie - seems to do this
3. Hang on - some people reversing T2 before the surgery

Followed by a study into why this unexpected thing happened.

So it appears that a crash VLC diet targets the liver above general body fat. So in turn this means that this may be more effective than a slow reduction (if your viscera doggedly hang onto their layer of fat). Then again RT now says that the total loss is more important than the speed of loss. Go figure.

 

[lindisfel]

Regarding NAFLD I listened to the fat emperor interviewing Jason Fung last night and he says fatty liver disease can be cured in two weeks but did not explain. Presumably this is by protracted fasting. D.

 

[Lamont D]

I vaguely remember starting out on VLC, when I was diagnosed. At that time, I was putting on weight gradually despite eating nothing much but low GI carbs.
I have said that the liver has a huge impact on our endocrine system, even though for us RH ers it's the pancreas and insulin imbalance that causes our hypers and hypos.
When I suddenly within a couple of weeks of starting, the weight was literally dropping off me.
The symptoms eased considerably and my mental functions were better.
I believe that after going very low carb for a few months, my body was repairing itself and I smashed my fat threshold. I have never looked back.
Wether it's the fat cells, hormones, or any of the scientific mumbo jumbo. Very low carb kick starts the healing process and when you find your personal balance of good healthy food for you, that's what works.
Simple!
I still like it simply put. Too many big words puts me off cos I have to look them up!

 

[Brunneria]

Crash dieting causes weight loss. Rapid weight loss. If some of that weight goes from the liver, then it may take the person below the personal fat threshold. Same with slower weight loss. I would LOVE to see a study that proves/disproves that certain diets target certain body parts or organs. That would be fascinating. But I haven't seen it yet.

Of course, short term rapid weight lost DOES reduce glycogen stores in the liver, which is part glucose, part water, so getting rid of those will shrink the liver rapidly. But that isn't reducing the fat... And a few meals of carbs will fill the stores right back up again. Sometimes glycogen stores can be sizeable.

If you have any studies on this subject, please link to them? Am very curious to know where this idea has come from. Especially since it seems to pressure people into rapid/starvation diets.

The bariatric surgery thing is different. There are various theories as to why bariatric surgery can appear to reverse T2, including weight loss, changes in the gut biome and changes in the way the small intestine works. I believe @Indy51 has been following the research on this? (sorry to invite you into this thread Indy, it is quite, quite mad, completely off topic, and full of wild theories )

Plus, of course, if someone's diet prior to bariatric surgery takes them below their personal fat threshold, then they will reverse. Again, speed of diet irrelevant, except that it prepares people for surgery, and prepares them mentally and physically for the period after surgery when they are on liquids and adjusting to small quantities of food and drink.

I don't think anyone has drawn any definitive conclusions yet as to how all these things fit together and (as Darkhorse mentioned earlier), without the evidence, these things are just theories.

 

[zand]

Well I've been trying so hard to read and understand this thread. I know what insulin resistance is, I have it by the bucket load, but ***'s a paradigm?

 

[lindisfel]

Crash dieting causes weight loss. Rapid weight loss. If some of that weight goes from the liver, then it may take the person below the personal fat threshold. Same with slower weight loss. I would LOVE to see a study that proves/disproves that certain diets target certain body parts or organs. That would be fascinating. But I haven't seen it yet.

Of course, short term rapid weight lost DOES reduce glycogen stores in the liver, which is part glucose, part water, so getting rid of those will shrink the liver rapidly. But that isn't reducing the fat... And a few meals of carbs will fill the stores right back up again. Sometimes glycogen stores can be sizeable.

If you have any studies on this subject, please link to them? Am very curious to know where this idea has come from. Especially since it seems to pressure people into rapid/starvation diets.

The bariatric surgery thing is different. There are various theories as to why bariatric surgery can appear to reverse T2, including weight loss, changes in the gut biome and changes in the way the small intestine works. I believe @Indy51 has been following the research on this? (sorry to invite you into this thread Indy, it is quite, quite mad, completely off topic, and full of wild theories )

Plus, of course, if someone's diet prior to bariatric surgery takes them below their personal fat threshold, then they will reverse. Again, speed of diet irrelevant, except that it prepares people for surgery, and prepares them mentally and physically for the period after surgery when they are on liquids and adjusting to small quantities of food and drink.

I don't think anyone has drawn any definitive conclusions yet as to how all these things fit together and (as Darkhorse mentioned earlier), without the evidence, these things are just theories.

Hi Brun, apparently fructose goes straight to liver and is stored as fat. I reckon zero fructose for a few weeks may help defat the liver?

 

[Brunneria]

Hi Brun, apparently fructose goes straight to liver and is stored as fat. I reckon zero fructose for a few weeks may help defat the liver?

I like the sound of that - but would reducing the fructose cause fat in the liver to reduce too - or would it just prevent new fat being laid down?

I am guessing that any reduction in fat deposits is going to require eating less overall, not just eating less fructose while maintaining the same overall food intake...

Edited for grammar

 

[lindisfel]

Paradigm is a fancy way of saying pattern or model! It was the word used in the article.

 

[Brunneria]

This just popped up via the Newbot. Fascinating. And quite possily relevant to this discussion.

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/thr...-cells-determines-response-to-insulin.106807/

 

[Lamont D]

I vaguely remember starting out on VLC, when I was diagnosed. At that time, I was putting on weight gradually despite eating nothing much but low GI carbs.
I have said that the liver has a huge impact on our endocrine system, even though for us RH ers it's the pancreas and insulin imbalance that causes our hypers and hypos.
When I suddenly within a couple of weeks of starting, the weight was literally dropping off me.
The symptoms eased considerably and my mental functions were better.
I believe that after going very low carb for a few months, my body was repairing itself and I smashed my fat threshold. I have never looked back.
Wether it's the fat cells, hormones, or any of the scientific mumbo jumbo. Very low carb kick starts the healing process and when you find your personal balance of good healthy food for you, that's what works.
Simple!
I still like it simply put. Too many big words puts me off cos I have to look them up!

This just popped up via the Newbot. Fascinating. And quite possily relevant to this discussion.

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/thr...-cells-determines-response-to-insulin.106807/

Once again the gut biome can be the difference between all of us, there is so many differentials in play, that no wonder the answer is elusive. One of the interesting points is that it may not be at cellular level that decides how we react to carbs and the sugars.
The fructose theory is good as I've noticed that I'm hardly eating any fruit and I'm back to losing weight again, very slowly I may add!
Which group would us RH ers be in? Or from my own experience be both?
By having hyperinsulinaemia and insulin resistance?

I saying this because of my misdiagnosis of T2, when my blood glucose were in the thirties?

 

[zand]

Yes, the fructose theory makes sense to me too, maybe I'll drop the berries for a while and see if I start to lose weight again.

 

[Indy51]

@Brunneria - I tend to stay away from these kinds of threads because I think a person who hasn't studied the subject in depth to pass a Uni course could probably send themselves nuts trying to work it out Have you seen those charts on metabolism Dr Rhonda Patrick uses in her lectures?

I prefer to go for the pragmatic - if the solution is a low carb diet and/or fasting, who really cares why? If it doesn't change the treatment, you could end up spending years chasing a definitive answer and still be no further along in your journey.

As for bariatric surgery, ISTR that the latest thinking is that by removing part of the intestine, it in effect rewires the way satiety hormones work. I don't think any amount of crash dieting can probably duplicate that effect? I also recall Michael Mosley saying there's no evidence for the theory that fast weight loss is less effective than slow and that contrary to received wisdom, rapid weight loss tends to be more effective.

But, to quote that old chestnut, we're all different. Crash dieting works brilliantly for some (mostly males who've never seriously dieted before judging by the experiences on this forum), not so for others. There is no just ONE thing (even bariatric surgery) that works for everybody.

 

[lindisfel]

There are loads of these people with a string of degrees who still advocate T2D's eating a lot of carbs so I am never over awed by those who pull rank to support their pet hobby horses!

 

[Squire Fulwood]

I like the sound of that - but would reducing the fructose cause fat in the liver to reduce too - or would it just prevent new fat being laid down?

I am guessing that any reduction in fat deposits is going to require eating less overall, not just eating less fructose while maintaining the same overall food intake...

My gut (snigger) feeling is that it could be counterproductive to keep eating fructose and drinking alcohol if attempting to de-fat your liver. Just "prevent new fat being laid down" sounds better than the alternative to me. A general losing of weight also feels right at this time. I have no evidence for any of this but I can dream of being able to manage my visceral fat and subcutaneous fat independently. Be good wouldn't it.