New study. Keto v low carb v low cal

Oldvatr

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my DN (and others) say that I need 130g of dietary carb to achieve sufficient good brain function. If i am not doing keto, are they right that I need 130g a day, hence that being the level considered to be the low carb lowest safe threshold?

My question is basically - in ketosis people dont need carbs, as they have sufficient glucose to feed my brain. What about those of us not in ketosis? How many carbs do we need for efficient brain function? I dont think this is being addressed. I understand those doing keto can function brain-wise. Is there evidence for those us of on, for example, 60g of carbs a day, not producing ketones, are having enough glucose produced for our brains?

I hope this question is clear enough. Its difficult for me to explain.
It depends on what your blood glucose is doing. If it is above 3.9 mmol/l then it is sufficient. Below that is where it becomes dodgy and leading to brain fog etc. So you could be on very high carb, very high medication dose and still go unto hypoland, or you can fast or use low carb to drop the bgl low. It is not just carb intake level. Heavy and sustained exercise can do it (Paula Radcliffe in the Olympics marathon). Fasting can do it. Meds can do it.
 

LittleGreyCat

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The brain requires glucose only for people who have not become fully fat adapted.

Unfortunately this is not correct.
Most of the brain can run on ketones but there are areas where ketones will not cross the blood/brain barrier.
Blood glucose is needed for these areas.
If not supplied by dietary carbohydrates, the body can generate this through gluconeogenesis.

You will note that people eating zero carbs still have glucose in their blood.
 

LittleGreyCat

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my DN (and others) say that I need 130g of dietary carb to achieve sufficient good brain function. If i am not doing keto, are they right that I need 130g a day, hence that being the level considered to be the low carb lowest safe threshold?

My question is basically - in ketosis people dont need carbs, as they have sufficient glucose to feed my brain. What about those of us not in ketosis? How many carbs do we need for efficient brain function? I dont think this is being addressed. I understand those doing keto can function brain-wise. Is there evidence for those us of on, for example, 60g of carbs a day, not producing ketones, are having enough glucose produced for our brains?

I hope this question is clear enough. Its difficult for me to explain.

There is a point in going low carb where the dietary intake isn't enough to meet all your energy needs.
At that part the body will usually start to generate some ketones.
This leads to a "grey area" where the body isn't getting enough carbohydrates but hasn't switched to efficiently producing and using ketones.
I can't find the reference at the moment, but it is probably in Volek & Phinney amongst others.

So the figure of 130g per day sounds reasonable, without a definitive reference.

Not enough total carbs combined with incomplete fat adaption can, as I understand it, lead to the dreaded "carb flu".

This is one reason to suggest going very low at the start if you are trying to go either low carb or keto.

Noting also that you are specifically asking about brain function.
The amount you HCPs are suggesting should meet your basic energy needs for muscles and other tissues as well as the brain.
I can't thing of any way that the carbs could be labelled "brain only" and not be used by other tissues.
 
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Chook

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@lucylocket61 I suspect that if you aren't fat adapted and are still using your brain and body then you are consuming enough carbs.I

From my own personal experience I think that HCPs mainly just don't know or don't want to know about keto.

Some of you might have read my previous post on this.... Sometimes (maybe a year or so) after starting eating a keto diet I had the usual annual review with the DN at my local surgery. She was pleased my Hba1c had gone right down but horrified that I was avoiding carbs and not injecting insulin. She told me keto was so incredibly bad for my brain that I would soon die if I didn't eat carbs because brains need a steady supply of glucose which is only provided by carbs. I asked how long death by keto would take - she thought about it for a moment or two and then decisively said 'three weeks '. I laughed and said i must already be dead then because I've been low carbing for a year.

This told me two things... she hadn't been listening to what I'd been saying and she wasn't up to date on the subject she was supposed to be specialising in.
 

Mrs T 123

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@lucylocket61 I suspect that if you aren't fat adapted and are still using your brain and body then you are consuming enough carbs.I

From my own personal experience I think that HCPs mainly just don't know or don't want to know about keto.

Some of you might have read my previous post on this.... Sometimes (maybe a year or so) after starting eating a keto diet I had the usual annual review with the DN at my local surgery. She was pleased my Hba1c had gone right down but horrified that I was avoiding carbs and not injecting insulin. She told me keto was so incredibly bad for my brain that I would soon die if I didn't eat carbs because brains need a steady supply of glucose which is only provided by carbs. I asked how long death by keto would take - she thought about it for a moment or two and then decisively said 'three weeks '. I laughed and said i must already be dead then because I've been low carbing for a year.

This told me two things... she hadn't been listening to what I'd been saying and she wasn't up to date on the subject she was supposed to be specialising in.
This may seem a stupid question to many .... but how would I know if I was fat adapted or not?
 

ianf0ster

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When fat adapted you have plenty of energy even when you haven't eaten for longer than usual. Real hunger (as opposed to boredom or thirst) and needing food to top up your energy (unless your an elite athlete) should never happen when fat adapted.
I noticed it when I realised that I had been eating breakfast out of habit rather than being hungry. The when not eating breakfast, that I could work and do my daily exercise just as well as if I'd eaten breakfast.
 

Mr_Pot

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This may seem a stupid question to many .... but how would I know if I was fat adapted or not?
A very good question. Another good question is " Is there such a thing as fat adapted"? Surely we are can all use fat when we need to or there wouldn't be much point in storing it.
 

bulkbiker

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A very good question. Another good question is " Is there such a thing as fat adapted"? Surely we are can all use fat when we need to or there wouldn't be much point in storing it.

Once you have burnt through your glucose stores and have ceased adding more glucose then yes you can starting burning your body fat.Until then unless you are running a marathon the switch is pretty unlikely.. the switch from burning glucose/cabs to fat comes with some metabolic cost which is why longest distance runners hit "the wall" .. for most they just top up on glucose to power through it. For the fat adapted runner it simply doesn't happen so far as I'm aware. That's why there are quite a few very low carb ultra-marathon runners.
 

Mr_Pot

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Once you have burnt through your glucose stores and have ceased adding more glucose then yes you can starting burning your body fat.Until then unless you are running a marathon the switch is pretty unlikely.. the switch from burning glucose/cabs to fat comes with some metabolic cost which is why longest distance runners hit "the wall" .. for most they just top up on glucose to power through it. For the fat adapted runner it simply doesn't happen so far as I'm aware. That's why there are quite a few very low carb ultra-marathon runners.
The liver will maintain a level of glucose in the bloodstream, so why do the glycogen stores not refill?
 

Robbity

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@Mrs T 123: If you look at some of the benefits claimed for low carb and ketogenic style diets, e.g. less hunger, more energy, mental clarity... these are all signs that we are (becoming) "fat adapted" and making an automatic switch from carbs to fats for fuel when the former is depleted.

I believe that being fat adapted is our body's natural state: we're designed to burn dual fuels - both carbs and fats. It's only because we've been persuaded into eating frequent high carb low/reduced fat meals and snacks that our bodies have been conned into relying mainly on this quick easy and potentially addictive carby fuel, as both dietary and stored fats need more effort to convert into usable form. Carbs can be also be converted and stored as fatty fuel, but are not so easily accessible again if we rely on them as our main fuel source, so our bodies need a bit of a kick in the pants to stop relying entirely on carbs and be persuaded into readily switching to both dietary and stored fats after we've used up all the carbs. Basically "fat adapted" is just a shorthand ,slightly techie term for this return to normal use of both types of fuel, accessing both the stored and dietary versions without issue.

(N.B. This is essentially a dozy old OAP's interpretation and others may be better able to describe the goings-on in more scientific terms.)
 
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bulkbiker

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The liver will maintain a level of glucose in the bloodstream, so why do the glycogen stores not refill?
The liver maintains the necessary level of glucose via gluconeogenesis but not enough to store?
 

pdmjoker

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@lucylocket61 I suspect that if you aren't fat adapted and are still using your brain and body then you are consuming enough carbs.I

From my own personal experience I think that HCPs mainly just don't know or don't want to know about keto.

Some of you might have read my previous post on this.... Sometimes (maybe a year or so) after starting eating a keto diet I had the usual annual review with the DN at my local surgery. She was pleased my Hba1c had gone right down but horrified that I was avoiding carbs and not injecting insulin. She told me keto was so incredibly bad for my brain that I would soon die if I didn't eat carbs because brains need a steady supply of glucose which is only provided by carbs. I asked how long death by keto would take - she thought about it for a moment or two and then decisively said 'three weeks '. I laughed and said i must already be dead then because I've been low carbing for a year.

This told me two things... she hadn't been listening to what I'd been saying and she wasn't up to date on the subject she was supposed to be specialising in.

In the most recent (May 2017) Position Statement “Low-carb diets for people with diabetes” of a diabetes charity, immediately under the heading “The role of carbohydrate in the diet” it says “Most carbohydrates are broken down into glucose which is an essential fuel for the brain” and to give authority to their claim they cite a research paper. Firstly, they have implied that eating carbohydrate is essential, which is not true. Secondly, the research paper doesn't appear to demonstrate that glucose is an essential fuel for the brain, but comprises a discussion of how the brain uses glucose. Also, it begins with the statement “The mammalian brain depends upon glucose as its main source of energy ...”. This claim, which is made twice in the paper without qualification, is only true if glucose is the main source of energy in all circumstances for all types of mammalian brain. Illustrating just one instance where this isn't the case (a counterexample) renders the statement false.

Two human mammal counterexamples: If someone is Keto-adapted, which takes a few weeks after starting a Ketogenic diet, about 75% of their brain uses the ketone β-hydroxybutyrate as fuel, which is why mental clarity improves. Indeed, the remainder of their brain uses glucose, but the liver makes it as required in a process called Gluconeogenesis, so eating carbohydrate isn't essential, but optional. Also, I gather newborn babies being fed only their mother's milk can be sufficiently in ketosis for half their brain to be using β-hydroxybutyrate as fuel. Hence, the mammalian brain doesn't always depend on glucose as its main source of energy.

Oddly, the paper mentions Ketogenic diets and β-hydroxybutyrate, but doesn't see the logical contradiction about brain fuel in the opening line, which is extraordinary. If the paper had said “When on a carbohydrate rich diet the human brain depends upon glucose as its main source of energy” then the qualifications would have made it a correct statement. This logical own-goal might not invalidate everything that follows in the paper, but it doesn't give an impression of credibility and one wonders what other false assumptions have been made. When citing a research paper to support a medical claim in a public document, it is surely good practice if the paper is both credible and demonstrates the claim to be true. Otherwise, the credibility of the message (and even that of the organisation producing the document) becomes questionable.

I also gather the human foetus is in ketosis and many of us seem to get through that with our brains in tact! :)
 
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Robbity

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Having spent most of my life eating moderate amounts of both carbs and normal full fats, my brain definitely didn't get on with being bombarded with a surfeit of carbs - before I was diagnosed as T2 I ended up eating a too high carb diet due to retired carbaholic husband's shopping and cooking choices, and suffered about five years of awful debilitating zombie brain fog as a consequence. I didn't know what was wrong and GP kept blaming my weight...:banghead: However, being diagnosed with T2 and immediately cutting right back down on carbs again very quickly restored me and my poor addled brain back to normal.
 
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lucylocket61

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Having spent most of my life eating moderate amounts of both carbs and normal full fats, my brain definitely didn't get on with being bombarded with a surfeit of carbs - before I was diagnosed as T2 I ended up eating a too high carb diet due to retired carbaholic husband's shopping and cooking choices, and suffered about five years of awful debilitating zombie brain fog as a consequence. I didn't know what was wrong and GP kept blaming my weight...:banghead: However, being diagnosed with T2 and immediately cutting right back down on carbs again very quickly restored me and my poor addled brain back to normal.
I agree, same for me. However, there appears to be a 'safe' level of carbs needed, in those who dont eat keto, to keep the brain functioning as well as possible.
 

pdmjoker

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I agree, same for me. However, there appears to be a 'safe' level of carbs needed, in those who dont eat keto, to keep the brain functioning as well as possible.
I've certainly come across a max level of carbs that I can tolerate, as have others.
Don't know if there is a minimum carb level - seems like the body responds to the diet and will make whatever glucose is needed. Can anyone confirm/deny this from knowledge of physiology?
 

bulkbiker

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I've certainly come across a max level of carbs that I can tolerate, as have others.
Don't know if there is a minimum carb level - seems like the body responds to the diet and will make whatever glucose is needed. Can anyone confirm/deny this from knowledge of physiology?

Zero
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