NICE suspend Dr Unwin’s infographics ?

Banana sales must be down

ISTR that Barney Calman has form in trying to trash low carb diets? Wish I could recall the previous incident, but brain isn't cooperating. I think it may have been a hit piece on Aseem Malhotra, but I could be wrong.

The graph in the sugar Vs banana test regarding the journalist & the "pre-D friend" using what looks like Dexcom CGMs is interesting..

Possibly misleading in their own right..? Firstly, they don't look like a Dexy graph? I've seen enough of my T1 Dexcom wearing freinds graph to know a screen shot when I see one..

The other thing is the journalist seemed to fair worst spike wise than pre D on the second day? But there are no reference points to work from, other than BGs rose by "thus much." In the case of the jounalist for the Daily Mail. Higher than the pre D on the second day with both sugar & the fruit?
I seemed to have lost the link. But scroll down to the bottom of the original highlighted link it will take you to a DM site with the artical.

Think I found it.. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/...ana-bad-type-2-diabetes-SIX-spoons-sugar.html

Sorry @HSSS your link referenced a test? I wished for some visuals.. There is a CGM graph comparison on the test?
If it's a true representation? They don't look like a Dexcom or any form of CGM graph I know..
Love a bit of mystery..

Edit. Scroll down past the two stock pictures of meter testing & you will see the graphs.
Better still, i thought i'd just paste it in.. "Michele" is the pre D.

I haven't read the link fully but I think when looking at anything it is important to know what someone's biases are. For me the great advice here is always supported by- trust your meter. I don't believe myself that the pharmaceutical companies are particularly interested in an approach to any medical condition that doesn't include them

meanwhile I will eat to my meter. I'd rather trust that and the many on here who have the same diagnosis that I do than trust any one else.

I'm not going to be eating either a banana or sugar any time soon.

They weren’t using any form of CGM from what I see in the article - looks like finger pricks at 2 hours as it mentions in the text that they moved around as little as possible for 2 hours after eating to avoid burning any glucose through exercise.

One would hope that NICE and the NHS in general would be interested in the cost savings and numbers of type 2s in remission in Dr Unwin’s practice. Those results speak fie themselves. He’s also now getting good results with type 1s. Better evidence than a random 1 off experiment.

I suspect the issue here is that £48k saved is £48k lost. £48k that will soon become £48bn if Dr. Unwin and low-carb isn't taken out at the knees. I'm only surprised it took this long.

Goonergal said:

They weren’t using any form of CGM from what I see in the article - looks like finger pricks at 2 hours as it mentions in the text that they moved around as little as possible for 2 hours after eating to avoid burning any glucose through exercise.

One would hope that NICE and the NHS in general would be interested in the cost savings and numbers of type 2s in remission in Dr Unwin’s practice. Those results speak fie themselves. He’s also now getting good results with type 1s. Better evidence than a random 1 off experiment.

Click to expand...

Now that's rather interesting. There is an insinuation there was a CGM involved with the test..
Which made me question what was happening with the highlighted graphs posted.?

Unless they were finger testing every 15 minutes for 2 hours.. it still doesn't explain the graphs looking like data collated every 5 minutes.?

IMHO this article is complete *****.

It is written by someone who is a carb novice, and who happens to have a friend with prediabetes. He could not be bothered to enlist bona fide diabetics There is a load of suspect pseudo science in the article, and at least one of the academic institutions (Glasgow) is strongly supporting the vegetarian diets. At least one of the professors is an advocate for Newcastle Diet.

There was no consideration that a banana changes fructose sugars into sucrose as it ripens.

Some pseudo science that confirms a novice;
£The rationale is that, because carbohydrate in food is broken down into single sugar molecules during digestion, both food and ‘neat’ sugar have the same effect on blood sugar levels".
The single sugar molecules are glucose and sugar itself is also metabolized into glucose Sugar is a simple carbohydrate but still a carb. Our body does not discriminate at the bgl level and grabs what we feed it..


It is probably true that most people on a low carb diet give up: most do it for purely weight loss purposes and stop just like any other diet plan for many varied reasons. These people do not measure their BGL so remain blissfully unaware of any other significant effects that can be at play. I am minded of Dr Moseley doing a TV program where he took a mix of normal and diabetic people and fed them things like a bagel, or a banana, and demonstrated on camera that their sugar levels spiked - even those who were non diabetic

"So does sugar become a poison to type 2 diabetics? ‘That’s not supported by the evidence,’ answers Prof Kar." Suggest an invite to read this forum.

"Professor Partha Kar, NHS England’s chief diabetes expert, argues that the only scientifically proven way to get type 2 diabetes under control, with diet, is to shed excess pounds: ‘The evidence, as far as trials go, sits with low calorie diets,’ he said." You are out of date here. There have been recent RCT studies and meta studies that do not support this POV.

"While agreeing it is true, diabetes control before drugs did rely on avoiding carbs, Prof Frost makes the point that: ‘Patients’ quality of life was horrendous. They suffered ill health, and died rapidly.’ By far the biggest cause of death in diabetics, today, is heart disease, he adds: ‘To avoid heart disease, being a healthy weight and having a diet that’s lower in saturated fat is best, not low-carb but high fat.’"
Almost making sense at least when acknowledging the Banting Diet. But the rest of it neglects that T2D growth since 1950 swamps T1D and Banting would not stop T1D progressing in the days before insulin. Small wonder they suffered in those days. It was the only treatment in town, the only new kid on the block. The only tool in the medicine chest,

The article rubbishes Low Carb, but does include this quote from his prediabetic friend giving her personal experience
"Diabetes runs in her family, and Michelle, not wanting to follow the same fate, embarked on a strict low-carb diet.In six months, she lost half a stone – and her blood sugar is now almost within the normal range."

But its not science is it?

Edited by Mod

They probably chose the most over-ripe bananas they could find, with swishy skins and insides!
D.

If I’m being honest, the pre d results look very very similar. Just proving to me that bananas do have a very extreme reaction to blood sugars, much like pure sugar.

I was so uneducated in this area, I had no idea. Now I am aware bananas do raise blood sugars, particularly in those with a predisposition to a certain metabolic condition, I can behave accordingly.

This article feels biased, it suggests low carb doesn’t work beyond 12 months?!?! That isn’t what I’ve seen on this forum.

Anyway, I still eat bananas but I do so armed with the knowledge around carbs and that has helped me lose 2.5 stone and half my hba1c from 91 to 46 in three months and take no medicine. So I’ll be sticking to it for longer.... the heart attack/ sat fat part has worried me tho

Here is how Dt Unwin derived his spoonsfull of sugar
https://insulinresistance.org/index.php/jir/article/view/8

Of course, as a practicing GP he also had in house data from his patients.

I think it is based on the work done by Gary Taubes on glycaemic load as opposed to the GI index values.

Here is an explanation by a nutritionist on both GI and GL
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/carbohydrates-and-blood-sugar/

The article is attacking the premise and even the notion that all carbs have teaspoon equivalents of sucrose which is itself a carb. I too had problems with finding where and how the numeric values were derived, and this could indeed be a valid subject for questioning. It would have been more worthwhile if the author had calculated the area under the curve (i.e the integral AUC) and compared various foods. As it was it appears to be an (n=tiny) experiment done in a kitchen somewhere so like on this site, the data produced is anecdotal and cannot be used to justify those conclusions at all.

A similar argument erupted over an article in the Grauniad
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...nks-25-teaspoons-sugar-starbucks-costa-coffee

Apparently the bloke is also a vegetarian with a beef against eating meat. No problem with that, but it pretty much writes the article off as junk. A guy with no patients of his own, and an ex Olympian subject who became diabetic. Think I’ll stick with Dr. Unwin for now.

ianf0ster said:

No, I heard Dr Unwin himself say he contacted the NZ scientist who first came up with Glycemic Load to do them for him.

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I believe it was Geoffrey Livesey who was a co author of the report I linked to. I agree it was not David himself who came up with the figures, but it was Dr Unwin who published the reports and Infographics in question. Neither of them is the creator of the GL tables and the concept of GL has been around for some time.

What David did was try to make the concepts more easily understood by Lay People. i.r. non medical.non nutritionist general public. GI snd the more recent GL were both around some 20 years ago, and were indeed recommended by NICE as an acceptable diet plan for T2D. So it made sense for David to use concepts that were already accepted by the NHS, who he was persuading to adopt his diet, (which they have)