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Paleo Diet!

DC.
As I said.....if you think it's a grand idea.......just do it. You did say your friend thought it was good.........obviously after just a short time you seem to be of the same opinion. That's rather a quick conversion when for some of us the road to better Diabetic control can take many years and much research. Especially as the Cromagnon man's average life expectancy was around 28 yrs.....
I have been around a lot longer and plan on many more, all that by eating a 20th and now 21st Century diet.........a healthy one I might add. Works very well for me so why would I want to change it to this 'fad diet.'

The idea that this 'Fad' is relatively new is not correct. We have heard it all before. It just goes around in cycles when some person stumbles across it and then decides to tell the World....again !

The idea of the Paleo diet has been around since the 1980s, but it was popularized in the 2002 book "The Paleo Diet: Lose Weight and Get Healthy by Eating the Food You Were Designed to Eat" by Loren Cordain, a professor at Colorado State University.
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Whatever you have to say about it is as far as I am concerned just another opinion. It is not factual, just your opinion. Whatever you or anybody else will say about it will not convert me. I have read all I need to about it. You are not the first to turn up here telling us all how wonderful it is. I don't suppose you will be the last.

Since 2004 I was a follower of the NHS so called 'healthy' diet. It nearly killed me. Then I came here and saw with my own eyes that there was a better way......reduction of carbs and some medication. That shows I am not averse to change. I am not entrenched in my thinking, I have changed tack many times, I used to low carb but couldn't tolerate the fat content in my diet for various reasons. So, I changed. Just because I don't agree with this 'fad diet' shouldn't make you think that your opinion about it is better than my own. You like it...I think it is a load of bunkum !

We get all sorts of 'fad diets' espoused here from time to time........they usually come and go. You see none of us like being preached at.......we all have our own brains and we think for ourselves without some 'guru' from who knows where telling us we should all be eating differently. Their way......I prefer to eat my way. The way that works fine for me as a Diabetic.

I do all my own research and the Paleo diet along with a few others was quickly discounted as I wanted something that I could follow for the rest of my life and didn't want it to be something I knew I would have difficulty keeping to.

I am not going to change your mind and neither are you going to change mine. That is what an opinion is all about, I gave you mine. I have listened to you....sort of. Now we will have to agree to differ.

Just off to Tesco see if they have any Mammoth Burgers for tea........ :wink:
 
I have read both those links before, and also many, many more. The first link is a study that took 13 people and purports to be factual is rubbish.....is just a waste of everybody's time. Even in the full report it said further trials were required. So not really a good example if you were hoping to convert me. You see, I actually read and evaluate the stuff they put out about these trials and studies. Some good...some bad. That particular one is really just a joke !

The so called Diabetic diet that some of them were on was probably the same one that nearly killed me. It mentions that it is the ADA advice. The NHS or the ADA recommended diet......not good for any Diabetic I would have thought. We already know that, it isn't what most people here do. So that trial was flawed in many ways.......slanted to show that the Paleo diet is better than what most of us know is a rubbish diet for a Diabetic anyway. I wonder how they would fare if they followed the dietary recommendations that most people here have found out for themselves without having to eat like a caveman ?

We too have improved our cardiovascular risks, our lipids, our blood pressure, our eyesight, our health, our fitness and stamina. I look and feel 10 years younger than I am....not because of the Paleo diet.......because of advice found on this forum regarding carbs and other healthy ways of eating. Why on earth would you even think that you could begin to persuade me that my way was not the correct way. Well, my Endo and SDSN both think what I am doing is great. They love the results I am getting.....all without a single ounce of caveman food and thinking. I do it MY way.

Why do you think that most of the people on this forum shun the recommended NHS dietary advice and we follow what we know is best for us ? Many people on here get great results just by reducing carbs, some eat more fats than others. We don't have to go back to ancient ways of eating to achieve that. Read the success stories here, there are some facts for you.
 
diabeticchicken said:
I believe it holds a lot of value for yourself and those around you.
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Here we go, another evangelical crusade.

I shall be eating chicken in red wine with basmatti rice tonight followed by strawberrys and cream, washed down with a couple of glasses of red Merlot.

I was on insulin for over a year from diagnoses, I lost 4 stone in weight and managed to come off insulin. I now get by pretty well on 4 metformin a day.

Oh my latest AC1 came through today 5.4% Now what were you saying about a diet that may be of value to me :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
cugila said:
I have read both those links before, and also many, many more. The first link is a study that took 13 people and purports to be factual is rubbish.....is just a waste of everybody's time. Even in the full report it said further trials were required. So not really a good example if you were hoping to convert me. You see, I actually read and evaluate the stuff they put out about these trials and studies. Some good...some bad. That particular one is really just a joke !

The so called Diabetic diet that some of them were on was probably the same one that nearly killed me. It mentions that it is the ADA advice. The NHS or the ADA recommended diet......not good for any Diabetic I would have thought. We already know that, it isn't what most people here do. So that trial was flawed in many ways.......slanted to show that the Paleo diet is better than what most of us know is a rubbish diet for a Diabetic anyway. I wonder how they would fare if they followed the dietary recommendations that most people here have found out for themselves without having to eat like a caveman ?

We too have improved our cardiovascular risks, our lipids, our blood pressure, our eyesight, our health, our fitness and stamina. I look and feel 10 years younger than I am....not because of the Paleo diet.......because of advice found on this forum regarding carbs and other healthy ways of eating. Why on earth would you even think that you could begin to persuade me that my way was not the correct way. Well, my Endo and SDSN both think what I am doing is great. They love the results I am getting.....all without a single ounce of caveman food and thinking. I do it MY way.

Why do you think that most of the people on this forum shun the recommended NHS dietary advice and we follow what we know is best for us ? Many people on here get great results just by reducing carbs, some eat more fats than others. We don't have to go back to ancient ways of eating to achieve that. Read the success stories here, there are some facts for you.
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For the reasons I have explained before there is limited research based on this diet and only this diet. Perhaps you could name me the foods you consider healthy and I could provide you with evidence to show you that they are not.
 
diabeticchicken said:
For the reasons I have explained before there is limited research based on this diet and only this diet. Perhaps you could name me the foods you consider healthy and I could provide you with evidence to show you that they are not.
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Yes....we know that there is very limited research, also on many other 'fad diets', therefore how you can expect anybody to take it seriously is beyond me. Unfinished and flawed trials and studies are not a valid base for any sort of factual evidence as far as I am concerned. You want to believe this sort of thing then that is entirely up to you. Me, I have researched it well before you were around here.......we had someone here last year with a very similar view. Turned out the results he was getting weren't very good for his Diabetes. His control was poor. Maybe your friend is different ? Have you tried it out yourself rather than read all about the theory and not actually put it in to practice. My Diabetes has been well controlled for a long time now so why on earth would you presume to tell me that what I am doing is not healthy or good for me ? That seems a rather arrogant presumption.

As for you telling me that what I eat is unhealthy before you even know what it is shows that you really are just promoting this rubbish here.

What happened to your Diabetic friend....what are his results following this 'fad diet.' Is he well controlled, are his daily Bg levels well within targets ? Mine all are without having to adhere to this sort of 'fad diet.' I eat normally, without any problems. I am not overweight, Bg levels are all good, health all good. Why fix it if it 'aint broke ?

I eat normal foods, cooked, raw veg etc, cooked veg, fruit, pulses, grains, rice, pasta......nothing is off limits to me. Just only in moderation. If you care to check out the information both Sue and I hand out to newly diagnosed Diabetic's that should give you some ideas.........I follow that advice myself. Now if you think that is unhealthy....well, it seems to work well for me and also many others who have taken the advice there.

You asked for opinions.......it seems that because the opinions are not to your liking that you are now asking me to defend my choices. Why should I do that ? My choices are mine alone.

If you don't want to hear some criticism of this stuff then you shouldn't have asked for opinions, or are the opinions posted here only the ones you want to hear ?

So, as I have said before.....you want to follow this 'fad diet'.....feel free. Just leave me out.
I have had my say, maybe others might want to contribute to this discussion ?
You might hear what you want..........maybe not ?

BTW.....are YOU a Diabetic ? Your profile doesn't make it very clear.
 
cugila said:
diabeticchicken said:
For the reasons I have explained before there is limited research based on this diet and only this diet. Perhaps you could name me the foods you consider healthy and I could provide you with evidence to show you that they are not.
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Yes....we know that there is very limited research, also on many other 'fad diets', therefore how you can expect anybody to take it seriously is beyond me. Unfinished and flawed trials and studies are not a valid base for any sort of factual evidence as far as I am concerned. You want to believe this sort of thing then that is entirely up to you. Me, I have researched it well before you were around here.......we had someone here last year with a very similar view. Turned out the results he was getting weren't very good for his Diabetes. His control was poor. Maybe your friend is different ? Have you tried it out yourself rather than read all about the theory and not actually put it in to practice. My Diabetes has been well controlled for a long time now so why on earth would you presume to tell me that what I am doing is not healthy or good for me ? That seems a rather arrogant presumption.

As for you telling me that what I eat is unhealthy before you even know what it is shows that you really are just promoting this rubbish here.

What happened to your Diabetic friend....what are his results following this 'fad diet.' Is he well controlled, are his daily Bg levels well within targets ? Mine all are without having to adhere to this sort of 'fad diet.' I eat normally, without any problems. I am not overweight, Bg levels are all good, health all good. Why fix it if it 'aint broke ?

I eat normal foods, cooked, raw veg etc, cooked veg, fruit, pulses, grains, rice, pasta......nothing is off limits to me. Just only in moderation. If you care to check out the information both Sue and I hand out to newly diagnosed Diabetic's that should give you some ideas.........I follow that advice myself. Now if you think that is unhealthy....well, it seems to work well for me and also many others who have taken the advice there.

You asked for opinions.......it seems that because the opinions are not to your liking that you are now asking me to defend my choices. Why should I do that ? My choices are mine alone.

If you don't want to hear some criticism of this stuff then you shouldn't have asked for opinions, or are the opinions posted here only the ones you want to hear ?

So, as I have said before.....you want to follow this 'fad diet'.....feel free. Just leave me out.
I have had my say, maybe others might want to contribute to this discussion ?
You might hear what you want..........maybe not ?

BTW.....are YOU a Diabetic ? Your profile doesn't make it very clear.
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I'm not a diabetic. I decided to stay because I was enjoying our discussion. :)

I apologise if I offended you but I was hoping to spread a bit of knowledge which hopefully people will take from. Also because you reccommend a diet on this website I believe it will be interesting to come to some sort of conclusion.

I have things to do now but when I get more time I will post up some studies on your mentioned foods which I hope you will find interesting.

Just out of interest I also see that you don't include meat in the list. Is there any study you could refer me to which stopped you from reccommending it? My conclusions on meat studies have always been that its best included in anyones diet.
 
I read and researched the Paleo diet about 2 years ago...

It’s obvious that prehistoric man actually didn’t enjoy this style of diet by Stone Age they learnt a lot to make the meal a tad interesting, even though we would say basic and bland...

Another aspect that seems to be for forgotten is anatomy of the prehistoric man, err they had two stomachs, the second stomach is now shrivelled and called our appendix! Now one has to wonder not only why but what function did this serve???

Contrary to Hana believes we can digest and break down carbs otherwise foods such as fruits would all pass through us, and carbs would have no effect on our blood glucose levels, nor would it be stored as fat.. It cellulose and hasks that we cant digest, but these do have a purpose though, as the roughage it provides keeps our bowls clean and healthy.. Retains moisture in our waste so it passes easily etc...

Carbs are an easy energy source and easily converted to fat stores, good idea if you’re food supply is a bit unpredictable, store up to get through the lean times.. Hence the reason when we do eat carbs that only 40% hits the blood glucose levels and the rest goes to the liver to be stored to supply glucose to the blood stream between meals, the over flow is converted and laid down as fat reserve around the body..

We need an healthy diet with all the components that maintain long term health, but as diabetics we need to monitor the carbs that we consume both in bodyweight maintenance and the impact on blood glucose levels... There will be some of us whole need to take medications such as insulin to enable this to happen..

It learning to manage our carbs effectively, not avoiding them is how we deal with diabetes...
 
jopar said:
I read and researched the Paleo diet about 2 years ago...

It’s obvious that prehistoric man actually didn’t enjoy this style of diet by Stone Age they learnt a lot to make the meal a tad interesting, even though we would say basic and bland...

Another aspect that seems to be for forgotten is anatomy of the prehistoric man, err they had two stomachs, the second stomach is now shrivelled and called our appendix! Now one has to wonder not only why but what function did this serve???
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Breaking down raw food.

jopar said:
Contrary to Hana believes we can digest and break down carbs otherwise foods such as fruits would all pass through us, and carbs would have no effect on our blood glucose levels, nor would it be stored as fat.. It cellulose and hasks that we cant digest, but these do have a purpose though, as the roughage it provides keeps our bowls clean and healthy.. Retains moisture in our waste so it passes easily etc...

Carbs are an easy energy source and easily converted to fat stores, good idea if you’re food supply is a bit unpredictable, store up to get through the lean times.. Hence the reason when we do eat carbs that only 40% hits the blood glucose levels and the rest goes to the liver to be stored to supply glucose to the blood stream between meals, the over flow is converted and laid down as fat reserve around the body..
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Carbs aren't stored as fat, fat is stored as fat. Eating carbs effects our the insulin in our body (increases it I think) which leads to us storing fat. If you think about it this ties in with the whole caveman thing. For example we were eating high carb foods because meat was not avaliable, we therefore be better prepared for potential starvation due to the extra stored fat which could be stored at a later date.

jopar said:
We need a healthy diet with all the components that maintain long term health, but as diabetics we need to monitor the carbs that we consume both in bodyweight maintenance and the impact on blood glucose levels... There will be some of us whole need to take medications such as insulin to enable this to happen..

It learning to manage our carbs effectively, not avoiding them is how we deal with diabetes...
Click to expand...

Its not about carbs though. Healthier body = better diabetic health I would have thought. Plus all the other diseases.
 
diabeticchicken said:
Just out of interest I also see that you don't include meat in the list. Is there any study you could refer me to which stopped you from reccommending it? My conclusions on meat studies have always been that its best included in anyones diet.
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First of all this site does not recommend any particular diet regime.

Our advice focuses on the Carb content of a Diabetic's diet as that is what mainly affects blood glucose levels. Its also the case that there are Vegetarian Diabetics so meat would probably be offensive to them. Its a general guide to help them gain control not a menu. Everyone should eat a good balanced diet which includes proteins, fats and a reduced amount of carbs.
 
Sid
Much wild caught meat is high fat. What other fats are you thinking of?
Hana
 
cugila said:
I eat normal foods, cooked, raw veg etc, cooked veg, fruit, pulses, grains, rice, pasta......nothing is off limits to me. Just only in moderation. If you care to check out the information both Sue and I hand out to newly diagnosed Diabetic's that should give you some ideas.........I follow that advice myself.
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Nondigestible Carbohydrates and Mineral Bioavailability
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/129/7/1434S

Insulin-Like Activity of Concanavalin A and Wheat Germ Agglutinin—Direct Interactions with Insulin Receptors
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC433288/

Wheat Chemicals Starve Insect Pests
http://www.jyi.org/news/nb.php?id=890

Do dietary lectins cause disease?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... ool=pubmed

Bone metabolism in celiac disease
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18534236

(Blog link removed from post. Forum Policy)
 
hanadr said:
Sid
Much wild caught meat is high fat. What other fats are you thinking of?
Hana
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Sorry Hana but I have to disagree, wild meat is generally very lean, hunting is hard physical work in itself and the 'game' available to palaeolithic man would have been thin on the ground and not only that but as it would know that the smell of man meant danger it wouldnt have come within a mile of man.

Many early settlements have been found in coastal locations and piles of limpet and mussel shells have been found suggesting that easily to collect foods would have been the obvious daily answer to early man, running after wild animals would have only been done when other food sources had been exhausted.

But to be honest I dont really care if wild animals are high or low in fat, I am not going to change a lifestyle that is working so well for me that allows me to eat all food groups. If you want to scavenge for nuts and berries and chase down badgers that is your choice and good luck to you. :)

Red Thai curry with basmati rice followed by an orange for me tonight 8)

Hb Ac1's from diagnosis
March 2009.....12.6% Started on insulin
June 2009........5.4%
Oct 2009.........5.1%
Feb 2010.........5.5% Stopped insulin
May 2010.........5.7%
Sept 2010........5.4%
May 2010........5.7%

So what am I doing wrong Hana? diabeticchicken?
 
Why would a non diabetic want to post on a Diabetes Forum and extol the virtues of a specific diet involving no grains, unlimited fresh fruit and the absence of dairy products? I hope you never find out how diabetes affects your day to day living or your increased risk of heart problems. Do you go on other health related forums and praise this diet as it seems to be put forward by the authors as a cure all.
For all the articles that you put forward, we can all find opposing views. Seems a pointless exercise IMHO.
The majority of us will still eat carbs, dairy and fruit at a level that suits our own personal control. I wonder if you understand the concept of finding a suitable, individualised diet for someone with a chronic disease. We cannot all be lumped together and told to eat a particular way to gain control. Read through the forum and you will find many different approaches and many successes.
This diet may well work for some but it is not the be all and end all for diabetics.
This thread started off asking about the Paleo Diet but now it seems to be turning into something totally different. :? No amount of point scoring is going to help diabetics.
 
Sid Bonkers said:
hanadr said:
Sid
Much wild caught meat is high fat. What other fats are you thinking of?
Hana
Click to expand...


Sorry Hana but I have to disagree, wild meat is generally very lean, hunting is hard physical work in itself and the 'game' available to palaeolithic man would have been thin on the ground and not only that but as it would know that the smell of man meant danger it wouldnt have come within a mile of man.

Many early settlements have been found in coastal locations and piles of limpet and mussel shells have been found suggesting that easily to collect foods would have been the obvious daily answer to early man, running after wild animals would have only been done when other food sources had been exhausted.

But to be honest I dont really care if wild animals are high or low in fat, I am not going to change a lifestyle that is working so well for me that allows me to eat all food groups. If you want to scavenge for nuts and berries and chase down badgers that is your choice and good luck to you. :)

Red Thai curry with basmati rice followed by an orange for me tonight 8)

Hb Ac1's from diagnosis
March 2009.....12.6% Started on insulin
June 2009........5.4%
Oct 2009.........5.1%
Feb 2010.........5.5% Stopped insulin
May 2010.........5.7%
Sept 2010........5.4%
May 2010........5.7%

So what am I doing wrong Hana? diabeticchicken?
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Those results are good, but just good. I'm not in anyway taking away from those results and you need to enjoy life like we all do. If you want even better results and prevent yourself from getting other diseases then you could look to make changes.

I hope you understand the point i'm trying to make.
 
diabeticchicken said:
Those results are good, but just good. I'm not in anyway taking away from those results and you need to enjoy life like we all do. If you want even better results and prevent yourself from getting other diseases then you could look to make changes.

I hope you understand the point i'm trying to make.
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Sid's results are excellent.......I am sure he values your comments as a non-Diabetic and someone who obviously doesn't know a great deal about Diabetes in general.

I don't know why you think we need to be educated about your 'caveman' diet.....we are all mostly adults here and know bunkum when we see it !

So, what part of "You will not change my opinion" do you not understand ?

Posting a lot of links which TBH are meaningless to most diabetic's as they are not relevant is a waste of your precious time. Get a life and preach to the converted.....speaking personally......I am just not interested at all in what you have to say.

What I do is good for me and if I thought I needed to improve anything I certainly wouldn't listen to 'crackpot' theories ! Theories which you might follow although for someone who professes to have only just heard about it ???? You seem to be awfully keen to 'educate' with scant knowledge........or maybe you are not really who/what you make out. Maybe you are part of the organisations that promote this rubbish ?  We shall see........
 
diabeticchicken said:
I'm not in anyway taking away from those results and you need to enjoy life like we all do. If you want even better results and prevent yourself from getting other diseases then you could look to make changes.

I hope you understand the point i'm trying to make.
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No, I have no idea what 'point you are trying to make, what are these 'other diseases' you say I am heading for if I don't make changes :?:

Thanks for a cryptic and amusing post, this forum needs more humour :lol:
 
cugila said:
diabeticchicken said:
Those results are good, but just good. I'm not in anyway taking away from those results and you need to enjoy life like we all do. If you want even better results and prevent yourself from getting other diseases then you could look to make changes.

I hope you understand the point i'm trying to make.
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Sid's results are excellent.......I am sure he values your comments as a non-Diabetic and someone who obviously doesn't know a great deal about Diabetes in general.

I don't know why you think we need to be educated about your 'caveman' diet.....we are all mostly adults here and know bunkum when we see it !

So, what part of "You will not change my opinion" do you not understand ?

Posting a lot of links which TBH are meaningless to most diabetic's as they are not relevant is a waste of your precious time. Get a life and preach to the converted.....speaking personally......I am just not interested at all in what you have to say.

What I do is good for me and if I thought I needed to improve anything I certainly wouldn't listen to 'crackpot' theories ! Theories which you might follow although for someone who professes to have only just heard about it ???? You seem to be awfully keen to 'educate' with scant knowledge........or maybe you are not really who/what you make out. Maybe you are part of the organisations that promote this rubbish ?  We shall see........
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I was trying to share something which has been a great help to myself and others I know. Clearly there are some anger issues here so I will leave it there and sign out. I hope there are a few who have taken from my advice even if the people who reccommend what you eat are incapable of getting past their belief that every diet which they don't agree with is a fad. Neither SidBonkers or Cugila have presented any facts here whereas I have (although admittedly only a few). I hope people take it upon themselves to get onto Google and research paleo.

Good luck to everyone with their diabetes and general health.
 
diabeticchicken said:
I was trying to share something which has been a great help to myself and others I know. Clearly there are some anger issues here so I will leave it there and sign out.

So.....not only do you know very little about Diabetes you are also a pseudo Psychiatrist too ??? Since when has somebody taking a different view been equated with anger ?
It's just a difference of opinion. Not the one you obviously wanted to hear.

I think my comment regarding what and why you are here is a little too close to the truth for you.....tell us which website you represent, you'll feel better for it ! None of us have a problem with whatever diet regime people wish to follow. High carbs/low carbs/high fat/low fat/ Paleo/Rodeo....whatever suits that particular Diabetic.

You want to live like a caveman........just get on with it and don't try preaching to me. I just don't go in for the stuff you are peddling. My choice, an informed one and not a knee jerk rection to 'something somebody told me about ?

I hope there are a few who have taken from my advice even if the people who reccommend what you eat are incapable of getting past their belief that every diet which they don't agree with is a fad.
There probably will be those who want to know more about it. That is their choice and nobody is stopping them looking into it. By 'the people who recommend what you eat'......
I presume you mean myself and Sue ? We don't tell anybody what to do other than some basic advice for new members who usually have no idea about the process of metabolism and Diabetes. Carbs = Glucose = Insulin = Fat. A simplified equation which we explain in simple terms. Now those members don't HAVE to follow what we say....they have a choice.

We just try and help them because we are both experienced Diabetic's. Not just simply trying to promote a strange way of life, the Paleo Diet. As for our beliefs.....they are personal and are not this Forum's views. We don't claim to have all the answers, we just try and help people find the correct way for themselves.

There are many who don't follow what we say like sheep....they are all educated and informed Diabetic's.....they can draw their own conclusions about anything that is posted here. We are both capable of working things out for ourselves and we do not believe every other diet is a fad because we don't go along with it. The NHS and other organisations list Paleo as a 'fad diet.' We both agree, that's all. My friend Sue is a Low Carber.....that's not a fad diet. I'm a low GI/GL/low fat person. I think they are both a great way for some people. There are others who use other means. We just don't agree with 'evangalists' telling us to do something which we do not believe is best for a Diabetic. Our opinion.

Neither SidBonkers or Cugila have presented any facts here whereas I have (although admittedly only a few). I hope people take it upon themselves to get onto Google and research paleo.

Why should Sid or myself have to justify ourselves to you. As I have said before.....look around this Forum and see the success stories.......those are facts. Maybe you think they are all made up ? Those that low carb/reduced carbs need your help ? I don't think so. You do realise we could have cut out all the discussion.......I actually told people if they want to know more about it to Google it........

Good luck to everyone with their diabetes and general health.
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Maybe you are one of those people who when they want an opinion.......you give it to us ?
It doesn't work that way my friend.......you started this thread by asking an opinion implying that you wanted to know more about it ? It seems to me that you know ALL about it you just wanted to promote it on a mainstream Diabetic website.......well, you have. Probably not the answers and opinions you wanted to hear though ? Still....in life you don't always get what you want. So, if you're off that is your choice, you should stick around and learn something about Diabetes and Diabetic's.......we aren't all a soft touch you know. It doesn't addle the brain......... :wink:
 
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