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Paul Saladino Podcast Ep#43: Carnivore vs Fruitarian

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I found the podcast quite interesting, but even for me (consider myself to have high tolerance of long podcasts) it was too long.
This is the second time I have come across Carnivores saying that there is good evidence that an ultra low Fat High Carb diet can control BG or put T1D and T2D into remission, just as LowCarb Higher Fat can.And that the dangerous ground dietary wise is in the middle i.e. Medium Carb with Medium Fat or High Carb with High Fat.

What I don't understand is the science behind that, in contrast I do feel I understand the science (and common sense) behind LCHF working. Plus even knowing that there is evidence for HCLF, if I was a newly diagnosed T2 (not on insulin) again with a newly acquired BG meter, I'm sure that I wouldn't have the guts to probably put myself in hospital with HBG through the roof in order to get the Insulin in order to manage the transition to better Insulin resistance using HCLF!

So I feel that HCLF is really only an option for those without any form of Diabetes, or those who are already on Insulin.
 
ianf0ster said:
What I don't understand is the science behind that
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I think the mechanism is [thought to be] that if the diet is extremely low in fat but high in glucose, then nearly all the glucose will be used for energy and very little will accumulate and/or require storage. Of course this doesn't consider the other potential pitfalls of not consuming enough fatty acids - an essential macro - whilst consuming lots of carbohydrate - a non-essential macro.
 
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Or maybe that because there is no fat being consumed then the body has to use up all of its own supplies.

Which is great until the body depletes its fat stores completely then you die.

No wonder Kempener had to use a whip to ensure compliance on his rice diet.
 

Yes that’s also possible. One thing is for sure, if someone consumes no fat at all then they will eventually die. Of course, it’s very difficult or even impossible to consume zero fat, so they may just become very feeble and unhealthy. I certainly don’t intend to find out.
 
I listened to a bit of the pod cast after watching a few minutes of the video (linked below) I watched the video to see who Cyrus was. In the podcast they were both confusing their terms a lot while talking about insulin, glucose, the liver and the pancreas so it was hard to follow in places. But I really didn't listen to enough.

Because I don't know the full story of Cyrus, I may be wondering things that can be answered by watching, but from what I did see, I thought Cyrus was a T1, so I'm wondering if he is insulin sensitive (unlike T2 who are usually insulin resistant) - correct me if I am wrong here. And in the video below he talks about his blood sugar sky rocketing and then diving again into hypos while eating low carb / high fat and injecting insulin. Would that have been because his cells became physiologically insulin resistant due to low carb eating so when he did go and consume a few carbs, he couldn't predict the extra insulin he would need to inject to make up for the glucose sparing state his body was in?

Whereas when he was regularly consuming carbs, perhaps it was a more predictable reaction to the glucose so he could find the right amount of insulin to use. I know though that he said he needed less insulin while eating carbs regularly, which has me baffled. But surely a T2 who is insulin resistant due to over consuming carbs already would be silly to try a high carb diet??
Maybe a T1 who is insulin sensitive still can do this for years before they have a problem, except as you have mentioned, they are lacking fat and something else goes wrong with their bodies.

But it is interesting that there as some measurement of insulin alongside the diets. That's where we are all going in blind in a way if we can only measure blood glucose after eating a certain meal, we can't be sure how much insulin our bodies had to make to keep the glucose there, unless we get an insulin test alongside an oral glucose tolerance test, right?

 
@Cocosilk yes you pretty much have it spot-on. The podcast in its entirety teases out that the guests simply didn’t understand the difference between pathological insulin resistance and physiological glucose sparing. Rather, maybe they did, but didn’t really want to acknowledge it. I think this is where things got frustrating for Paul and he started talking over them a bit.

Your last comment about insulin is bang on the money, For T2DM, insulin, or rather, probable hyperinsulinemia, is everything. We must stop obsessing over glucose. Glucose in the blood is only the symptom of the metabolic derangement. We must know what is happening with our insulin production before drawing any conclusions or deciding on any appropriate courses of action.

It’s also worth noting that on the high fruit diet, his insulin requirements did actually go up, just not proportional to his increased glucose ingestion. This would be a disaster for a T2 who is already maxing-out their pancreas. One thing that I didn’t hear mentioned was the effect of fructose in the liver, which is also a massive factor for anyone with T2 or anyone who doesn’t want to get it.

Their high-glucose, high-fructose strategy may work for T1 but it would be more likely to give someone T2 than reverse it. As always, of course, we are free to make our own informed choices. The overall impression I got was that these guys were charlatans and just weren’t really all that knowledgable. But again, that could be my bias colouring my opinion.
 
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I notice Saladino is managing to attract quite a bit of ridicule on Twitter, even from other carnivores, over his crazy demands about people's eligibility to debate nutrition (they must have scans to confirm their lack of visceral fat; must have perfect teeth and no gum disease. Judging by the 'dueling abs' pics of him and Garth Davis doing the rounds, it's hard not to wonder what other prerequisites he'll dream up next).

I really find it hard to take seriously anyone who previously identified as vegan (like Saladino). He is, after all, a medical professional with knowledge of physiology and human evolution, so how he was ever persuaded into that "health philosophy" is a real puzzle. All the evidence he now uses to support carnivore has pretty much been common knowledge to students of evolution, prehistory, paleontology, anthropology, archaeology, etc for many, many moons, so hard to understand how he was duped into going that route in the first place. I've been puzzled before by the number of people in the real food space who actually got sucked into that way of eating for "health" reasons.

Maybe I should suggest that as a prerequisite - never been duped by veganism for health? Except, I don't think anyone should have conditions upon their eligibility to discuss nutrition. We're human, we eat, we can talk about it.

After listening to the latest Peak Human podcast with Dr Tommy Wood, have to say, his brand of reasonable is way more compelling to me. Now I think I'll have to confess to some fangirling
 

Like most of us, he is always learning and has adjusted his position in doing so. He found his eventual path to carnivore because it was the only thing that fixed his persistent eczema. As far as the being qualified to debate him thing, this is probably born from frustration against misinformation and lies from the likes of James Wilks and his peers.

But for sure I can appreciate that his style isn’t to everyone’s taste. That would be an unreasonable expectation.
 
lucylocket61 said:
To be honest, neither do I. I need a very simple explanation, preferably with visual aids.
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  • Glucose sparing is cells not wanting glucose so they don't take it. They're happy to use ketone bodies. Save glucose for the brain.
  • Pathological insulin resistance is cells already overstuffed with glucose due to hyperinsulinemia.
Of course it isn't entirely that simple (it never is!), but that's the nuts & bolts as I understand it. Happy to be corrected.
 
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It's a poor photo. If he's pushing the 'how to look like somebody from zombie movie' he's managing it rather necely.
 
I might listen to some of it, but I have to say, Cyrus only hears what he wants to hear. His following feels "cultish". Let me explain.

A former acquaintance of mine tried the low carb/keto diet half-heartedly. Didn't follow the guidelines, refused to test his glucose levels because it made him anxious, and also refused to see his doctor regularly or to have ongoing lab testing. After a year of this, he moved on but kept in touch with me.

Then he comes across Cyrus who affirms every fear he had about the low carb/keto diet, and he wants me to listen to Cyrus because he cares about me and fears I'm harming myself with the low carb/keto diet. I explained to him that low fat/high carb diet can work and he should try it and see what happens, but he continued to worry. Out of kindness, I listened to a few presentations by Cyrus (and Robby) to understand where they are coming from, which I learned quickly is "Its my way or the highway."

During he and Robby's presentations, they have people commenting in the chat box off to the side, who I assumed were people just like me who were there for the first time. Wrong. After 30 minutes of listening to him assert how bad the low carb/keto diet was for those who follow it, I'd had enough, and began posting my positive results to counter his assertions.

He did two things: the first was to read one of my comments then call me a liar; the second was to do something that prevented me from commenting further. That's when I realized almost everyone making positive, supportive comments were his "regulars". Frankly, I don't believe he's truth seeking.

I looked around a bit in their community area and found that while many of his type 2's had made a lot of improvements on the diet, their A1c's were still too high.

I'm actually glad you shared this. If this becomes an issue again, I'll just refer them to this podcast. Thank you.
 
Jo-the-boat, if I'm recalling correctly, he lost all his facial hair due to an autoimmune issue around the time that he was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes. When I listened to him a few years ago, he looked reasonably healthy.
 
Okay, podcast was highly technical at times but overall a good podcast. It was refreshing to hear Cyrus acknowledge that both diets can work, and to hear both Cyrus and Robby agree that it's important that we each have the right to follow the diet we choose for ourself, but equally important, that we learn how to do the diet we choose properly. That's good.

Thanks for posting the link to this podcast.
 
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