Paying for nhs care

[notafanofsugar]

I saw on the bbc this morning that in Scotland they are considering asking people who earn over a certain threshold to contribute to their care.

On one hand I agree that it’s a good idea because of costs, resources and the strain the nhs has but on the other hand I think the nhs should be free as it’s the most wonderful health service in the world. Thoughts?

 

[HSSS]

I saw on the bbc this morning that in Scotland they are considering asking people who earn over a certain threshold to contribute to their care.

On one hand I agree that it’s a good idea because of costs, resources and the strain the nhs has but on the other hand I think the nhs should be free as it’s the most wonderful health service in the world. Thoughts?

Isn’t that what higher taxes for the higher earners already does (or is designed to do at least)? I guess it depends what that threshold is and what care remains free.

 

[zand]

Hmm. Yes sounds good...but the same people are being asked to pay more and more.

This doesn't affect me, but if one partner earns more than £50k-£60k a year then family allowance is taken away, even if the other partner stays at home to care for the children.

When I was a stay at home mum, my years of staying home and receiving family allowance counted as NI payments towards my pension. By staying home I supported my elderly parents and also working muns when they needed soneone to take their kids to school etc. Why should someone who wants to make the same choices as me be penalised twice, by not getting the family allowance and also not getting pension credits? And now it could be a 3rd time by paying directly to the NHS?

On the other hand, last week I read of a family receiving £84k in benefits? I know this is a rare case but shouldn't benefits be treated in the same way as salary? i.e. no family allowance, no pension credits and tax payable at 40%

If the level for high earners is set really high then these people would probably pay privately for most health care anyway.

 

[lovinglife]

Hmm bit of a mine field, I live right in the border (3 miles) and some people on the English side are in Scotland for their GP and vice versa, it caused problems during Covid, so can’t see it working that easily, maybe they should start by charging for prescriptions again for those not exempt etc like here in England. Slightly off topic We even have farms who’s fields and land and even buildings are half in Scotland and England,

 

[mariavontrapp]

It's a slippery slope. The money for the NHS and other basic human rights is there, it's just not being managed or redistributed properly. Many members of our government and their associates are pro privatisation because they stand to make a lot of money from it.

 

[Lamont D]

I remember that is what the national insurance was for.
The amount of money given to private firms due to outsourcing and also for staff outsourced or brought in to cover is the wedge of privitisatation.
The amount of ringfenced tax money has depreciated so much in the last decade.
for instance if was 100 million in 2009. It is now only 120million, but to maintain the 2009 standard it should be 150million. They aren't exact figures, just to give you an id ea.
The Tories have cut everything down to the hard minimum and more. Training has become virtually non existent. And so expensive.
Why, because it is well known that if you are well off, private hospitals and insurance have become affordable due to government handouts , so why should they pay tax for the NHS?
There are many, many vacancies, deliberately.
Did you know private hospitals shut over the holidays?
Did you know private hospitals are given (yes, given new technology) to test.
Did you know private hospitals refer patients to specialist NHS services and then charge the NHS for the likes of transport, staff, time.
Did you know that royalty have special services, doctors, nurses, hospitals, clinics, surgeons, dieticians and so on, paid for out of your taxes!

The biggest problem is the Tories want an American style health service. But can't get rid of the NHS. There is a class divide in how you get your health care. It's great if you can afford private sector, but the truth is, if you can't you should be grateful for the NHS services you do get.

Lib dems, have said for years, a penny on income tax will solve so many problems if it is ringfenced for the NHS.
The NHS is the best, but it undermined by private greed. And it does seem that the present government really don't care.
Tax avoidance, loopholes in tax law, tax fraud, non doms, off shore tax fraud, British tax havens, multi nationals tax, would pay for the whole NHS without any private sector. So why don't they do something about that revenue?

I have relatives in tax, hospitals, front line and in border agency.

Brexit is killing this country, we are paying too much for everything now, if it continues, power cuts, rationing, tax hikes for the workers again will pay for it. We are not even charging for imports. Because we haven't got the infrastructure. That is a lot of money not being collected. All in the name of right wing doctrine.

The country is run **** about face!

If a Tory opens his mouth, he is lying!

Where I live, we know what Tories are! I wish the rest of the country did!
Over a dozen seats in my area, all Labour!
Tories left their mark on my area in the seventies, eighties and we are still counting the cost!
We cannot afford the Tories or the privileged or royalty!
That is the truth.

 

[HSSS]

It doesn’t help that the nhs are forced to take a short term view because of the way their funding is dictated by each successive government, constantly moving goal posts. Rather than invest in true prevention it’s all about symptom firefighting. Preventative healthcare is almost non existent in any meaningful way. Individualised, whole person care has long gone In favour of ticking boxes and isolating symptoms and conditions.

T2 Diabetes is an excellent example of this. They don’t test insulin which shows potential issues years earlier than blood glucose, they don’t utilise even short term testing as an educational tool (image what even a single libre for each newly diagnosed person could achieve), nor address nutritional guidelines. No one in power is dealing with the elephant in the country of highly processed foods or even trying to educate the public about the long term harms being done. Teaching kids to cook or understand their food has been ditched in ever decreasing budgets. Instead they plough billions into fighting a losing battle against the result of ignoring prevention. They’d rather pay for an amputation that a few months of testing strips. And don’t even get me started on training and staffing of drs and nurses in sufficient numbers to meet our needs.

Until or unless the nhs funding and management is treated in a ring fenced way by successive governments of whatever persuasion and run with people with medical knowledge having a much stronger input (bring back matron!) then the death spiral it’s currently accelerating down will only increase.

 

[BadaBing]

Hmm. Yes sounds good...but the same people are being asked to pay more and more.

This doesn't affect me, but if one partner earns more than £50k-£60k a year then family allowance is taken away, even if the other partner stays at home to care for the children.

When I was a stay at home mum, my years of staying home and receiving family allowance counted as NI payments towards my pension. By staying home I supported my elderly parents and also working muns when they needed soneone to take their kids to school etc. Why should someone who wants to make the same choices as me be penalised twice, by not getting the family allowance and also not getting pension credits? And now it could be a 3rd time by paying directly to the NHS?

On the other hand, last week I read of a family receiving £84k in benefits? I know this is a rare case but shouldn't benefits be treated in the same way as salary? i.e. no family allowance, no pension credits and tax payable at 40%

If the level for high earners is set really high then these people would probably pay privately for most health care anyway.

I would love to know in what broadsheet newspaper (or where online) you read that a family unit consisting of a mother, father and children receives benefits in the United Kingdom (which the OECD has stated as one of the least generous benefits systems in the entire world) totalling £84,000 in aggregate. Which amouny is just shy of what an elected member of the UK Parliament earns.

 

[zand]

I would love to know in what broadsheet newspaper (or where online) you read that a family unit consisting of a mother, father and children receives benefits in the United Kingdom (which the OECD has stated as one of the least generous benefits systems in the entire world) totalling £84,000 in aggregate. Which amouny is just shy of what an elected member of the UK Parliament earns.

Couple on £84,000-a-year benefits let girl sleep covered in poo next to dead dog

Christopher Bennett and Gemma Brogan were jailed for neglecting seven children kept with 36 dogs in 'shocking and repugnant conditions'.

metro.co.uk

Squalor family on £84,000-a-year benefits shows welfare system is bust

The scene that greeted the police when they arrived at the Eastbourne flat was one of unimaginable squalor.

www.express.co.uk

Couple paid £7,000 a month in benefits left children living in filth with 35 dogs

Gemma Brogan and Christopher Bennett jailed for six years each following ‘dreadful example of child neglect’ during lockdown

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[BadaBing]

I saw on the bbc this morning that in Scotland they are considering asking people who earn over a certain threshold to contribute to their care.

On one hand I agree that it’s a good idea because of costs, resources and the strain the nhs has but on the other hand I think the nhs should be free as it’s the most wonderful health service in the world. Thoughts?

I listened to the same reports on BBC Radio 4's Today Programme this morning.

At the end of the broadcast this morning one of the presenters of the Today Programme read out a statement from the Scottish government which said the Scottish government had no intention of changing the current system.

Which is unsurprising as, politically, it would surely be foolish to attempt to do so.

I found the reports this morning confusing. It suggested that the Scottish government was thinking of creating a "two-tier" Scottish NHS, where those who pay more might get "priority" treatment. Possibly.

If one is a higher rate taxpayer, one should be paying more tax to HM Treasury (or Scotland's equivalent) in any event. Unless of course one is a higher rate tax payer who has engaged a whip-smart accountant or tax lawyer to ensure one exploits all the legal loopholes to minimise one's tax bill.

If the Scottish government believe the tax burden between basic rate and higher rate taxpayers isn't fair, they always have the option to lower the rate at which higher rate tax is paid and/or increase the higher tax rate. I believe Scotland's government has the power to do so.

Before 5 July 1948 anyone needing healthcare in the United Kingdom had to pay for healthcare privately. If you couldn't afford to pay, and you weren't being looked after by a kindly doctor who took pity on you, you received no medicine or treatment.

Many people who couldn't afford to pay died.

On 5th July 1948 following a long and destructive world war, Attlee's government promised the Greatest Generation who returned from that war that they and their descendents would receive healthcare "from cradle to grave," free at the point of use, funded by a system into which every taxpayer contributes.

Based on clinical need and not the ability to pay.

Yes, 74 years later the system is creaking. Too many patients; not enough staff; underfunded massively by the current government (who lest we forget wasted tens of billions of pounds during the pandemic, which I am sure the upcoming public inquiry will find were mispent).

I simply do not understand why some British voters - the descendents of the Greatest Generation - now want 74 years later to dismantle what their great grandparents fought - and in many cases died - for during WWII by returning to a private healthcare system or some form of hybrid system involving insurance.

And I don't think British voters have thought through - properly - the unintended consequences of doing so. Particularly those voters who already have pre-existing co-morbidities.

The NHS needs more resources in terms of both money and staff. And the money allocate to the NHS needs to be used far more efficiently.

But it should never lose its "free at the point of use" and "based on clinical need, not the ability to pay" founding principles.

A two-tier NHS should not be created.

 

[Lamont D]

The welfare system is bust, but so is the whole country.
how can working people pay high tax, and still need to go to a good bank, which are running out of food!
Having food banks is a disgrace in the 21st century.

Everything about the Tories is a corruption of government for the people because it's clearly not!

 

[Grant_Vicat]

It's great if you can afford private sector, but the truth is, if you can't you should be grateful for the NHS services you do get.

I agree wholeheartedly, except for one thing. All my life I have been supported by the NHS outstandingly. In my twenties my father suggested I signed up to BUPA. "What for? As a diabetic I have a queue-barging talisman and I am looked after by one of the finest hospitals in the country. It;s not as though the medics are superior, they go to the same training hospitals as anybody else!" My father must have paid thousands into the private scheme, only to be seriously let down when he needed it most. I cannot print what I think of them!

 

[KennyA]

Here's a useful chart that shows spend on the NHS in England over the past few years and the projected spend up to the end of 2025. Of the £190.3 billion about £136 billion is given directly to NHS England. The remaining £55 billion goes on things like training clinical professionals, public health, regulation to ensure service quality etc.

 

[BadaBing]

Couple on £84,000-a-year benefits let girl sleep covered in poo next to dead dog

Christopher Bennett and Gemma Brogan were jailed for neglecting seven children kept with 36 dogs in 'shocking and repugnant conditions'.

metro.co.uk

Squalor family on £84,000-a-year benefits shows welfare system is bust

The scene that greeted the police when they arrived at the Eastbourne flat was one of unimaginable squalor.

www.express.co.uk

Couple paid £7,000 a month in benefits left children living in filth with 35 dogs

Gemma Brogan and Christopher Bennett jailed for six years each following ‘dreadful example of child neglect’ during lockdown

www.telegraph.co.uk

Thank you. I'm pleased you included at least one broadsheet.

Wow! OK. I understand from reporting elsewhere that at least five of the children involved were disabled and were entitled as such to disability benefits (and the parents carers allowances) because of their disabilities. Which the parents mispent according to the case reports.

A quite horrible and depressing case. But no doubt the exception rather than the rule, as you have said.

 

[zand]

It's a myth to think private medicine is better than NHS. It's quicker and the rooms are nicer, but that's all.

 

[Lamont D]

I agree wholeheartedly, except for one thing. All my life I have been supported by the NHS outstandingly. In my twenties my father suggested I signed up to BUPA. "What for? As a diabetic I have a queue-barging talisman and I am looked after by one of the finest hospitals in the country. It;s not as though the medics are superior, they go to the same training hospitals as anybody else!" My father must have paid thousands into the private scheme, only to be seriously let down when he needed it most. I cannot print what I think of them!

I have had battles, misdiagnosis, but that wasn't the care or lack of appointments, seeing specialists etc. With my medical history it's ignorance of what was exactly happening to me. I think I have been fortunate in many respects, but with others, the decline in services has been drastic. Not only with private, something like going to see a specialist through referral through NHS, then being told that there is a long wait, and advised to go private and finding themselves that the specialist doing the surgery is the same one. I have had three cancer scans, all benign, but the stories of some women is frightening.

Something needs to be done, has done for a few years, too much money for the NHS, is not going to the NHS.S
something needs to be done about the tax system.
something needs to be done about brexit.
something needs to be done about the Tories. Full stop.

 

[lovinglife]

It's a myth to think private medicine is better than NHS. It's quicker and the rooms are nicer, but that's all.

You forgot the tea and biscuits - don’t forget the tea and biscuits - in a China cup no less, oh and I got to call my consultant by his first name. (Hubby gets health care with work, we have had our moneys worth over the years I have to say)

 

[Outlier]

I've had both, and the private care was consistently streets ahead of the NHS, though I am grateful for each. Nothing wrong with improving the NHS where it's needed. And let's not forget that for every one of those folk who are able to pay for private care, someone else goes another step up the NHS queue.

My last experience of NHS, which included my diabetes diagnosis as an aside, was diabolical.

 

[sebg]

NHS isn't free any taxpayer is already paying and the amount you pay is a percentage of your wages so the more you earn the more you pay, so it's already happening. I think that people that have recently changed their citizenship should be the ones that pay more!!!