Prof Roy Taylor's work on reversing type 2 diabetes

[Fleegle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v6vsrB_dlUzI= Fleegle - this is a rather long lecture by Prof Taylor. If you can wait for replies to questions at the end he says, " You do it by drastically reducing the amount you eat, but if you find that difficult to judge you can use the liquid diet" And,"the ONLY thing that matters is the average calorie intake over a period of time" And, "the actual composition of the diet is the least important thing"

I will watch that - that is music to my ears because these shakes are slowly but surely killing me!

 

[Biggles2]

I guess we will have to wait until December when the results are published/presented to the ADA. I agree with CherryAA though, I would love to trends with the relevant markers, Fasting BG and Trigs, before and after the intervention. I would also like to see fasting insulin before and after the dietary intervention for his subjects who have successfully kept their DM in remission through the end of the research period.

 

[Fleegle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v6vsrB_dlUzI= Fleegle - this is a rather long lecture by Prof Taylor. If you can wait for replies to questions at the end he says, " You do it by drastically reducing the amount you eat, but if you find that difficult to judge you can use the liquid diet" And,"the ONLY thing that matters is the average calorie intake over a period of time" And, "the actual composition of the diet is the least important thing"

I don't think that the link works - or at least I cannot get it to work.

 

[badcat]

I don't think that the link works - or at least I cannot get it to work.

Me neither - an "interesting" mix of videos but no professor Taylor!

 

[Tannith]

Roy Taylor - Reversing the irrevesible: Type 2 diabetes and you. 4th Oct 2014
I think it is this one with a picture of the bridge on the front. Or maybe the one with the picture of the angel of the north on the front. Both are similar in content. There are a couple more which aren't clearly titled prof Taylor but have a picture of his face on the front. Anyway its one of the cones in the collection that the link goes to. It is very long and my quotes are from the questions at the end.

 

[Indy51]

Is this the one?

 

[Anthony1738]

I don't think that the link works - or at least I cannot get it to work.

Heres one that works

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

Just found the video. It's on YouTube called 'prof Roy Taylor - freedom from diabetes'. It's an interview by Gary Williams dated 3rd august 2017. Prof Taylor says results of the direct study will be presented in December at an international diabetes conference. He actually mentions the words 'game set and match' referring to changing the existing mindset about the disease !!

Gary Williams with Professor Roy Taylor

What I found of particular note, were the first 10 minutes of this video especially minute 4 onwards where Taylor explains what is going on in Gary's liver and then pancreas. Powerful stuff to behold that we can reverse our T2DM.. VERY POWERFUL Information.

 

[Tannith]

I don't think that the link works - or at least I cannot get it to work.

Its "Roy Taylor - Reversing the irreversible: Type 2 diabetes and you. 4th Oct 2014 that has the questions at the end that I quoted you.

Roy Taylor - Reversing the irrevesible: Type 2 diabetes and you. 4th Oct 2014

 

[Oldvatr]

I've read the work is being done this year and they expect to publish it late in 2018.

I have heard rumour that it is to be at the ADA conference in December2017 in USA. The participants in the second ND study have only just reached their anniversary in Sept 2017, so this will probably be the main thrust of that presentation, since these science guys like to keep current research under wraps until they are ready to spill the beans, and a long term study like DIRECT may not have convenient waypoints to broadcast. Don't forget that any releases must be approved by DUK before being made public, and they are wanting a full frontal Slam Dunk

 

[Tannith]

I'm told the results are to be presented on Dec 5th in Abu Dhabi. I think the success of the diet in reversing T2 should be judged by whether or not the participants who followed the diet long enough to clear their liver & pancreas of fat then had normal BGs and other tests. I don't think it is relevant whether or not a particular set of individuals managed to keep the fat off and hence keep their diabetes in reversal. That is a personal choice on their part.

 

[Biggles2]

I'm told the results are to be presented on Dec 5th in Abu Dhabi. I think the success of the diet in reversing T2 should be judged by whether or not the participants who followed the diet long enough to clear their liver & pancreas of fat then had normal BGs and other tests. I don't think it is relevant whether or not a particular set of individuals managed to keep the fat off and hence keep their diabetes in reversal. That is a personal choice on their part.

Here is the link to the December 2017 International Diabetes Federation (IDF) Congress in Abu Dhabi. This link is to the December 5th session schedule, but once on that page it is easy to navigate to the schedule for December 6th through December 8th. It looks like a wonderful conference. They are covering some great topics:
https://conference.idf.org/cmPortal/Searchable/AD2017/config/normal#!sessionschedule

 

[CherryAA]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v6vsrB_dlUzI= Fleegle - this is a rather long lecture by Prof Taylor. If you can wait for replies to questions at the end he says, " You do it by drastically reducing the amount you eat, but if you find that difficult to judge you can use the liquid diet" And,"the ONLY thing that matters is the average calorie intake over a period of time" And, "the actual composition of the diet is the least important thing"

Not sure I agree with him

If you eat 800 calories of dense nutrient rich foods and skip the carb element, you will still lose the weight, have more nutricious foods AND not create spikes from the carbs in the shakes which should reduce the abdominal fat quicker. .

 

[Tannith]

Not sure I agree with him

If you eat 800 calories of dense nutrient rich foods and skip the carb element, you will still lose the weight, have more nutricious foods AND not create spikes from the carbs in the shakes which should reduce the abdominal fat quicker. .

ND can be ANY vlcalorie diet of your choice,says Prof Taylor. He doesn't say you can't do a low carb version of very low calorie if you want to. He just says you don't HAVE to. The composition of the diet is not the important part. I would say that towards the end of the diet you should be eating normal carbs otherwise you may not be able to judge when the diet has worked. Losing liver and pancreatic fat is the objective. You have finished the diet when you have lost this. If you were doing it low carb you might be deluded into thinking you had finished when all that was happening was that the BGs were down simply because you weren't putting sugar/carbs into your body. You do not cure a peanut allergy by simply not eating peanuts.

 

[DCUKMod]

Not sure I agree with him

If you eat 800 calories of dense nutrient rich foods and skip the carb element, you will still lose the weight, have more nutricious foods AND not create spikes from the carbs in the shakes which should reduce the abdominal fat quicker. .

Whilst I make no challenge on real food versus the shakes option (I know which I, personally, find more acceptable), but the issue, in my view is one of compliance with the trial/research protocols.

Trying to collate a diet for every meal, for 8 weeks to absolutely ensure that the calories were near accurate and the macro nutrient content understood is the issue. I think on a real food alternative there could be a great temptation to add just a bit of this, or leave that off because MrX doesn't care for roast beef, or seafood, or whatever.

In correspondence with Professor Taylor, albeit in 2014 he stated he was unfussed how people trimmed up. His concerns were the weight loss and reduction in visceral fat.

@andcol did a real food equivalent of the ND on his diagnosis and has had an outstanding result. His journey is documented here: http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/got-my-first-3-month-hba1c-results-this-morning.55719/

The link is in his signature.

 

[CherryAA]

ND can be ANY vlcalorie diet of your choice,says Prof Taylor. He doesn't say you can't do a low carb version of very low calorie if you want to. He just says you don't HAVE to. The composition of the diet is not the important part. I would say that towards the end of the diet you should be eating normal carbs otherwise you may not be able to judge when the diet has worked. Losing liver and pancreatic fat is the objective. You have finished the diet when you have lost this. If you were doing it low carb you might be deluded into thinking you had finished when all that was happening was that the BGs were down simply because you weren't putting sugar/carbs into your body. You do not cure a peanut allergy by simply not eating peanuts.

I agree partially , but not entirely. if one accepts the premise ( as I do ) that the ability to lose weight is a function of how much insulin -( the fat making hormone) you have in your body, then it would seem likely that ANY diet that reduces circulating insulin quickly, will also reduce weight quickly. As such the composition of the diet IS important.

Those who have chosen to do this version by powders have also found their blood sugars going higher than they were doing before simply on LCHF - thus they also have more circulating insulin which may then slow down the speed of weight loss.
Eating powders is also enormously difficult to keep up for 8 weeks, so a real foods version may well be easier to stick to. ( for some people)

I agree entirely that the goal is to lose weight quickly hence thinking any version of this diet that lowers insulin more quickly will work better.

The actual test of whether it did work or not will be comprised of four things
a) a reduction in blood glucose
b) a reduction in fasting insulin levels
c) a disappearance of the morning liver dump
d) the ability to pass the OGTT within under the Kraft 1 lines proposed by Kraft.

If Prof Taylor's results show these things then that will be excellent news, however I will still believe that one could then have got there easier and faster by following a diet specifically designed to lower insulin within the confines of a low calorie diet as the primary first end point.

 

[CherryAA]

Whilst I make no challenge on real food versus the shakes option (I know which I, personally, find more acceptable), but the issue, in my view is one of compliance with the trial/research protocols.

Trying to collate a diet for every meal, for 8 weeks to absolutely ensure that the calories were near accurate and the macro nutrient content understood is the issue. I think on a real food alternative there could be a great temptation to add just a bit of this, or leave that off because MrX doesn't care for roast beef, or seafood, or whatever.

In correspondence with Professor Taylor, albeit in 2014 he stated he was unfussed how people trimmed up. His concerns were the weight loss and reduction in visceral fat.

@andcol did a real food equivalent of the ND on his diagnosis and has had an outstanding result. His journey is documented here: http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/got-my-first-3-month-hba1c-results-this-morning.55719/

The link is in his signature.

I understand entirely the point about research protocols and why that will have led to the powder route. The point about the harmful effect of intermittent snacking is also well taken.

That is precisely why I am trying to do this based on one meal per day with NOTHING the rest of the time. So far it looks very promising. Huge weight loss in five days, fasting blood sugars down and morning liver dump almost disappeared this morning. This has been based on 1000 calories in one meal where the 1000 calories meets practically 100% of all nutrient meals and is thus a diet that could be done forever if necessary without detriment to health and happens to be hugely enjoyable too.

I guess if I keep it up for the requisite 2 months then do an OGTT test, I will see if in fact it does " cure" diabetes, or whether its simply a function of good control. I would put money on the fact that if it is a function of good control under real food conditions the it is highly unlikely that any powdered diet will be anymore than that either .

Which may still be enough anyway to maximise health benefits - so I would not want to deter anyone from trying it !

 

[Oldvatr]

ND can be ANY vlcalorie diet of your choice,says Prof Taylor. He doesn't say you can't do a low carb version of very low calorie if you want to. He just says you don't HAVE to. The composition of the diet is not the important part. I would say that towards the end of the diet you should be eating normal carbs otherwise you may not be able to judge when the diet has worked. Losing liver and pancreatic fat is the objective. You have finished the diet when you have lost this. If you were doing it low carb you might be deluded into thinking you had finished when all that was happening was that the BGs were down simply because you weren't putting sugar/carbs into your body. You do not cure a peanut allergy by simply not eating peanuts.

Nor do you CURE a peanut allergy by eating nuts, but that does tend to lead to a resolution of sorts. Same with carbs for a T2 diabetic. If you have a diet that has medium to high carb intake, then these carbs will (inless fully utilised by exercise) will top up the glucogen stores in the muscle cells and liver. This will continue to sustain the liver dump effect, and in turn will prevent fat burning of the lipid fat stores in the liver and pancreas, So eating carbs will tend to slow down weight loss and reduce the liver fat reduction, but low carb (and low protein) will help reach that goal quicker, as proven in a recent RCT trial. This is all CherryAA was saying. Carb intake will keep bgl high and fluctuating for longer and slow weight loss.

 

[DCUKMod]

I understand entirely the point about research protocols and why that will have led to the powder route. The point about the harmful effect of intermittent snacking is also well taken.

That is precisely why I am trying to do this based on one meal per day with NOTHING the rest of the time. So far it looks very promising. Huge weight loss in five days, fasting blood sugars down and morning liver dump almost disappeared this morning. This has been based on 1000 calories in one meal where the 1000 calories meets practically 100% of all nutrient meals and is thus a diet that could be done forever if necessary without detriment to health and happens to be hugely enjoyable too.

I guess if I keep it up for the requisite 2 months then do an OGTT test, I will see if in fact it does " cure" diabetes, or whether its simply a function of good control. I would put money on the fact that if it is a function of good control under real food conditions the it is highly unlikely that any powdered diet will be anymore than that either .

Which may still be enough anyway to maximise health benefits - so I would not want to deter anyone from trying it !

I didn't actually make reference to snacking at all. I meant the addition of condiments or substituting ingredients/foodstuffs/meals to suit individual preferences, rather than comply with the protocols. Unfortunately not everyone es very clued up on nutritional values. That's no slight on the research subject, just a general, per population, generalisation.

I hope your experiment works well, but to be honest, probably all it does is reinforce that where any given T2's primary reason for their diabetes is having exceeded their personal visceral fat threshold, there are many ways to skin this particular cat.

For me, I didn't ND at all, but probably got the same result, as evidenced by serial HbA1c results, maintenance of my trimmed up state and recent OGTT result.

It comes down to personal choice and whether an individual wants a quick fix today (OK, in 12 or however many weeks) or whether they are content for a slower paced journey, perhaps more flexible and sociable journey.

The other question each individual has to ask themselves when considering their approach is how many steep learning curves they are willing to take on. For me, I decided I wanted to embark on something I could simply carry on with, with the obvious adjustments to stall weight loss and maintain (as opposed to yo-yo), rather than get to the end of the 12 weeks, then think, "What now?", and having to work out a whole now approach for me.

I hope you achieve your objective.

 

[CherryAA]

I didn't actually make reference to snacking at all. I meant the addition of condiments or substituting ingredients/foodstuffs/meals to suit individual preferences, rather than comply with the protocols. Unfortunately not everyone es very clued up on nutritional values. That's no slight on the research subject, just a general, per population, generalisation.

I hope your experiment works well, but to be honest, probably all it does is reinforce that where any given T2's primary reason for their diabetes is having exceeded their personal visceral fat threshold, there are many ways to skin this particular cat.

For me, I didn't ND at all, but probably got the same result, as evidenced by serial HbA1c results, maintenance of my trimmed up state and recent OGTT result.

It comes down to personal choice and whether an individual wants a quick fix today (OK, in 12 or however many weeks) or whether they are content for a slower paced journey, perhaps more flexible and sociable journey.

The other question each individual has to ask themselves when considering their approach is how many steep learning curves they are willing to take on. For me, I decided I wanted to embark on something I could simply carry on with, with the obvious adjustments to stall weight loss and maintain (as opposed to yo-yo), rather than get to the end of the 12 weeks, then think, "What now?", and having to work out a whole now approach for me.

I hope you achieve your objective.

I know you did not make reference to snacking - however in my view it is "snacking" that is so very hard with a normal diet. That is precisely why I think that if you retrain your food habits, by embarking on eating one per day, real foods up to a calorie intake maximum that you can cope with , then that stands a good chance of success and will also be a long term solution, by introducing one more meal of the same kind eventually .

I guess I will find out in due course and thanks I hope I do too!