Protein Levels

[SWUSA_]

I have been obsessing over protein levels this week. I am going to post this as a thread because I am interested in what other people have to say on it as well. Do not feel that you have to respond to everything just let me know if anything jumps out as you. I have some long standing kidney damage from the high uric levels of gouty arthritis before they were controlled-it has been at the same level now for 37 years but I have always eaten a low protein diet-I just do not like meat very much. I have been looking at information from the Kidney Foundation here and they recommend not more than 0.8 grams for each kg of body weight. (I know we discussed that upper limit before but I do not remember in exactly what context.) That would put me at 185lb/2.2kg =84.0909091kg*0.8g/kg=67.27 grams recommended as a highest amount of daily protein to consume. And that would decrease as I lose weight. I had been trying to eat the minimum recommended of 45 grams per day and trying to increase the % of diet that I eat as protein but after reading information from several sources on Chronic Kidney Disease (CKD) at my stage (2.5) I do not think that I should. You may say that is not a Diabetic issue but 30% of people with Diabetes have some amount of kidney damage according to the American Diabetes Association (ADA).
I am at 40% fat in my daily intake ratio now and I know if I go above that limit I will start to have gall bladder problems again (having tried several times-I do like fat). I have increased water because chron-o-meter program told me I needed to-but I am not sure about that now either. Some increased water helps your kidneys flush things out but too much water makes them work too hard. Carbs I know work at 80 to 100 carbs per day for me, with good fasting and PPD glucose readings. Will this need to decrease as I lose weight also or will it stay the same or will I get even lower fasting numbers with the same level of medication?
So, of the 4 macro nutrients (Protein, Carbohydrate, Fats and Water) I now have daily finite upper limits on Protein (due to CKD at 0.8 x kg of body weight or 67.27 grams right now), Fats (max about 60 grams due to gallbladder issues), Carbohydrates (80 to 130 grams due to Diabetes) and Water (also due to CKD issues about 72 ounces per day). Which at first sounded restrictive to me but then I realized that we all have finite upper limits on what we should consume-it is just not me, and it is just not at this time but has always been that we have finite upper limits on what we should consume. (I laughed at myself a little there.)
Minimum levels are set by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) at 45 gram per day of Protein, no minimum on carbohydrates, 64 ounces of water, and 30% of total intake as fat recommended as an upper limit.
So.....as I lose weight am I going to have to adjust the % of different macro nutrients, or just the volumes of everything overall? Or am I just obsessing about what has not happened yet and I should just continue on until I do lose more weight and then make adjustments as needed?

 

[SWUSA_]

I just might add that I do not want to add more carbohydrates and actually would like to decrease the number of carbohydrates I eat per day but I can not increase fats or proteins much higher at all than they are right now-adding more low carb vegetables are the only answer I see here. Or just eating less overall in the same ratios as now, which is 40% fat, 25% protein and 35% carbohydrates as a % of total calories eaten per day. I am at intake of about 1450 calories per day now as an average with BMR of 1454.
It also strikes me that there are many people who are struggling to take in enough and it is a good problem to have when you have to decide what not to eat.

So the question is: Given the various constraints I have, how much protein should I be eating?

And having actually formulated the question my urologist gave me the answer last fall: about 45 grams or less per day. So I can work backwards from that and plug in my already known carb amount of 80 to 100 carbs and then calculate the amount of calories I have left-which can be in fat (up to 60 grams per day) or fiber rich non-starchy vegetables. And that is my new formula for diet-until something else changes. I will input the limits into chron-o-meter tomorrow.
Please let me know if you see any flaws with this. I will run it by my doctor next week as well.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

I think the limit of 0.8gms/kg is the RDA in the US. It is meant to apply to the majority of people, however I spotted this on the Mayo Clinic website: "According to the "International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism," a maximum safe protein intake is 2.5 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight, or about 1.1 gram of protein per pound of body weight each day. By not exceeding this maximally safe amount, you can avoid protein toxicity and extra stress on your kidneys." I can only assume that if you have specific problems like poor kidney function, the "international Journal of Sport Nutrition . . . . " probably isn't the best organisation to listen to.

 

[Kristin251]

I had kidney stones and backed down my protein although I had already done that. I eat between 35-45 grams of protein a day. The other thing with kidneys is high oxalate foods so I stopped with the spinach and dark leafy greens and minimized nuts. Not sure if kidney failure and stones require a low oxalate diet but I would think it wouldn't hurt.
I too have struggled with finding the right amount of protein. I have eaten the same amount for well over a year and see no muscle loss. Excess protein turns to blood sugar. I weigh 121 so the 40-45 works for me. I think it's supposed to be lean body mass rather than wreight including body fat.
My macros are 75-80 fat, 15 protein and 5 carbs. I spilt my protein throughout the day. Never more than 3 ounces at a time. BF is 7 g lunch 10-12 and dinner 15-20. I understand the fat thing but with me the type of fat matters more than the amount. I split an avocado over all 3 meals. Lunch and dinner ha e a small drizzle of olive oil and snacks are just a few nuts. I eat three small meals and small snacks throughout the day in order to not tax and organs or digestion. I do not count calories. When I say small meals I mean small. They could fit in a one cup measuring cup.
Lunch and dinner are 1/3 avocado chopped, my protein and a small handful of veggies lightly drizzled in oil. BF is 1/3 avocado, 1 thin slice deli turkey on a lettuce wrap. A high fat meal bogs me down. Small and often work better for me.
I don't think you necessarily need to weigh your fat. My mantra is low carb, MODERATE protein and JUST ENOUGH FAT TO SATISFY. No more and no less. Avocado and a few nuts (3 or 4) inbetween meals are better for me than saturated fats. Not too heavy on the oil either.

Hope that helps

 

[robert72]

@SWUSA_ It might be worth trying medium chain fats like coconut oil, as they don't need bile to break them down.

 

[SWUSA_]

I think the limit of 0.8gms/kg is the RDA in the US. It is meant to apply to the majority of people, however I spotted this on the Mayo Clinic website: "According to the "International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism," a maximum safe protein intake is 2.5 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight, or about 1.1 gram of protein per pound of body weight each day. By not exceeding this maximally safe amount, you can avoid protein toxicity and extra stress on your kidneys." I can only assume that if you have specific problems like poor kidney function, the "international Journal of Sport Nutrition . . . . " probably isn't the best organisation to listen to.

No David,it is actually below the recommended amount of protein in the RDA for USA. This is the recommendation for Chronic Kidney CKD, later half of stage 2 and worse. It is also the amount recommended by the American Diabetes Association (ADA) because one of the organs affected by Diabetes is your kidneys, You are quoting a body building magazine, or as they would say there "broscience."

 

[SWUSA_]

@SWUSA_ It might be worth trying medium chain fats like coconut oil, as they don't need bile to break them down.

Thanks, my gallbladder issues were treated with lithotripsy to break up the gallstones. I have extra bile-oh, do you mean your body does not produce as much bile to break down coconut oil as other oils?

 

[SWUSA_]

I had kidney stones and backed down my protein although I had already done that. I eat between 35-45 grams of protein a day. The other thing with kidneys is high oxalate foods so I stopped with the spinach and dark leafy greens and minimized nuts. Not sure if kidney failure and stones require a low oxalate diet but I would think it wouldn't hurt.
I too have struggled with finding the right amount of protein. I have eaten the same amount for well over a year and see no muscle loss. Excess protein turns to blood sugar. I weigh 121 so the 40-45 works for me. I think it's supposed to be lean body mass rather than wreight including body fat.
My macros are 75-80 fat, 15 protein and 5 carbs. I spilt my protein throughout the day. Never more than 3 ounces at a time. BF is 7 g lunch 10-12 and dinner 15-20. I understand the fat thing but with me the type of fat matters more than the amount. I split an avocado over all 3 meals. Lunch and dinner ha e a small drizzle of olive oil and snacks are just a few nuts. I eat three small meals and small snacks throughout the day in order to not tax and organs or digestion. I do not count calories. When I say small meals I mean small. They could fit in a one cup measuring cup.
Lunch and dinner are 1/3 avocado chopped, my protein and a small handful of veggies lightly drizzled in oil. BF is 1/3 avocado, 1 thin slice deli turkey on a lettuce wrap. A high fat meal bogs me down. Small and often work better for me.
I don't think you necessarily need to weigh your fat. My mantra is low carb, MODERATE protein and JUST ENOUGH FAT TO SATISFY. No more and no less. Avocado and a few nuts (3 or 4) inbetween meals are better for me than saturated fats. Not too heavy on the oil either.

Hope that helps

 

[SWUSA_]

Thanks for the support.

 

[SWUSA_]

-I just got back from my doctor's appointment-My HA1c is now in controlled range, It went from 7.5 three months ago to 7.0 with blood drawn a week ago. I lost two pounds and my kidney function had improved a little on all three measures. I'm happy, something is working.

 

[Salvia]

I've been reading this thread with interest, particularly the calculations for nutrients per day. I don't want to throw things off kilter, but can anyone tell me how to work out how much protein there is in an item of food? Say, a chicken thigh, 100g/4oz approx weight, but that would include bone, fat, and water for example, so isn't 100g of protein.

I have been using the Carbs & Cals book for a lot of things, or sometimes the store websites, but have no idea how to work it out for myself. For example, chicken thigh isn't included in the book, so I just use the chicken drum figures, and guesstimate around the numbers as a rough guide; but I'd like to know how to do it properly. Same for pork shoulder, which I love, also not included in the book.

Any ideas?

 

[SWUSA_]

I've been reading this thread with interest, particularly the calculations for nutrients per day. I don't want to throw things off kilter, but can anyone tell me how to work out how much protein there is in an item of food? Say, a chicken thigh, 100g/4oz approx weight, but that would include bone, fat, and water for example, so isn't 100g of protein.

I have been using the Carbs & Cals book for a lot of things, or sometimes the store websites, but have no idea how to work it out for myself. For example, chicken thigh isn't included in the book, so I just use the chicken drum figures, and guesstimate around the numbers as a rough guide; but I'd like to know how to do it properly. Same for pork shoulder, which I love, also not included in the book.

Any ideas?

I have begun using chron-o-meter. Chron-o-meter it has a calorie count for chicken thigh,bone in skin eaten per ounce and one for chicken thigh bone in, no skin. It is a free calorie counting app. You can upgrade to a gold version but the free version is adequate for looking up foods and has a lot of real foods already entered. I will look it up for you but it may take a few minutes. The natives are restless here.

 

[SWUSA_]

@Salvia the link is : https://cronometer.com/

Here is the chicken thigh, skin eaten information per ounce: 8.0 gram protein, 3.7 gram fat, 0.0 gram carbohydrate, 159.9 gram water and 67.8 calories.

So four ounces would be: 32.0 gram protein, 14.8 gram fat, 0.0 gram carbohydrate, 639.6 gram water and 271.2 calories.

Of course if it is breaded and fried there are more carbs. There are other listings for KFC and various other related things too. This entry does not specify bone in so I would take it to be actual meat and skin eaten by ounce for the first set of numbers and by four ounces of meat and skin for the second set.

I hope that helps.

 

[Salvia]

Thanks @SWUSA for this info. I'll have a browse around that site to see what's what. Do I take it from the above details, though it mentions chicken thigh, that as a general rule there are 4g of protein in each oz of meat - or fish / egg or whatever the item is? Or is it individual to the food item?

 

[SWUSA_]

Thanks @SWUSA for this info. I'll have a browse around that site to see what's what. Do I take it from the above details, though it mentions chicken thigh, that as a general rule there are 4g of protein in each oz of meat - or fish / egg or whatever the item is? Or is it individual to the food item?

Protein per ounce is individual to the food item as most foods have a mix of proteins, fats, water and maybe carbs too.
The drop down menu has several options-you can use ounces and change the number of ounces to match what you ate or plan to eat. Or "one serving" for prepared foods or one piece for crackers, etc. You choose the amount after you choose the food.
(The forum there is not as friendly as this one although the moderator is very knowledgeable and helpful. There seem to be more unchecked egos on their forum)

 

[Salvia]

OK, thanks very much. I'll take a look and see what I can work out from that site.

 

[Kristin251]

I use www.calorieking.com. You can choose serving size from the drop down. The average for protein is 7g per ounce if that helps. So 2 oz is 14, 3 oz is 21 etc. The leaner the higher. White chicken or turkeynis around 8-9 and fatty meats like prime rib is closer to 6.

 

[Salvia]

I use www.calorieking.com. You can choose serving size from the drop down. The average for protein is 7g per ounce if that helps. So 2 oz is 14, 3 oz is 21 etc. The leaner the higher. White chicken or turkeynis around 8-9 and fatty meats like prime rib is closer to 6.

Thank you Kristin251, that's another option I'll take a look at. Yes, I guess the average is what I was thinking about, though it makes sense for the figure to vary depending on how lean the food is. I have taken the easiest route since changing the way I eat, on the basis that this was for life so I thought it best to start from the beginning in a way that I knew I could continue for ever. I haven't got into too much detail about counting carbs, fat, protein, calories, etc. Up to now I have worked on a broad basis of avoiding the starchy/grain stuff, kept to my previous usual amount of protein, and have upped fats quite a bit, (with checks using the Carbs & Cals book and websites to keep below, say, 8g carbs/100g.) After reading some things recently about weight loss stalling, I was wondering if just maybe I have been eating too much protein that is then getting converted to fat stores.