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re reversal of type 2 diabetes

Discussion in 'Diabetes Discussions' started by Manogwent, Jun 26, 2011.

  1. humph

    humph · Well-Known Member

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    The people on the trial were at home and expected to continue their normal exercise routine, yhey certainly were not bed bound.

    Years ago I did the Cambridge Diet when I was in the RAF, the Cambridge Diet at the time was just over 300 calories a day, I was fully active, working on jet aircraft with no problems what so ever during the duration of the diet. 600 calories will be a walk in the park.
     
  2. catherinecherub

    catherinecherub · Guest

    The DSN I spoke to contacted the trial organisers and was told this. They are equally upset that it hasn't been explained properly in the media and are worried about the backlash if people become ill if they decide DIY method. Why would they lie?
     
  3. Etty

    Etty Prediabetes · Well-Known Member

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    This seems like an extreme way of reducing your carbohydrates! It works out at about 70 grams a day. (46% of 600 cals. divided by 4). I think this was about the level of carb. in the old diabetic exchange system --- 6 bread units of 12g each. Much the same health benefits could be achieved without such drastic measures, which clearly are not sustainable.

    It would be interesting to redo this using food--- 60 g of protein (240 cals.) + 45 g of fat (405 cals) = 645 cals. I wonder which method would make you hungrier and more food obsessed?
     
  4. Hobnoblin

    Hobnoblin · Active Member

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    I don't want to come across as sanctimonious but I actually do find it easy. I do get mad carb cravings some times, sometimes I give in (usually involves 3 ryvittas, cheese, tomato and butter). My point wasn't that it was easy though,just the notion that suddenly the experts think diet might be pivotal in the reversal of diabetes LOL Who'd have thought eh? I don't think it's a cure, neither is low carb or low GI for that matter, but you can live diabetic free if you choose your diet correctly.

    Quite frankly that's a ludicrous thing for your DSN to say. Programmes like Lipotrim have been authorised and run by the NHS for years - that's around 600 cals a day. It doesn't need anywhere near the supervision that you DSN seems to think. Pre-diabetes many moons ago, must be 9 or 10 years ago, I followed Lipotrim myself. I lost six stone in just a few months, but when I went back to 'normal' eating , ie eating ****, it all went back on. Lot's of people do it via their doctor or the pharmacy, it doesn't make you frail or weak, at least not after the initial couple of weeks whilst you are getting used to it. I was doing a very energetic job at the time and it was fine.

    Do I think it's a cure? No. Do I think it's a good idea? Probably not, although if you have a lot of weight to shift and your doctor is ok with it it could be a good way of reducing your insulin resistance. I'm lucky that I found a way that allowed me to keep the weight off in a sustainable way. Glad I don't need to do that again. Definitely agree that it is not the sort of thing you should do without some supervision though, and certainly not a DIY option.
     
  5. catherinecherub

    catherinecherub · Guest

  6. Patch

    Patch Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Humph,
    I read the research paper with great interest (thanks bowell!). Do you know where I can get the optifast in the UK, or the amount of optifast to drink at each meal (assume 3 daily optifast shakes/soups?) or how large/what type of vegetable should be eaten?

    I'm very keen to give this a bash, and would be happy to do it in parallel to yourself and share results and support!
     
  7. Unbeliever

    Unbeliever · Well-Known Member

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    Just out of concern Patch, I would imagine the medical supervision referred to might involve things you couldn't do for yourself - blood tests etc but I am sure catherinecherub will have a beter idea abou it than I do.

    It is easy to understand the principle behind this . I would try it too but I think I would like to see more evidence and a few refinements first.
     
  8. Patch

    Patch Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Not me Unbeliever - I'm sick of Diabetes, and am willing to take the risk now for a reversal . The fear of future complications is enough to push me into taking a risk with this.

    Thanks for your concern, though.
     
  9. catherinecherub

    catherinecherub · Guest

    Hi Patch,

    I see from your profile that you have had Type2 for 10 years and reading through your posts you seem to have tried everything to get this under control.

    It is a risk with using this plan and, as you say, you are becoming desperate. It is not a position that I would want to find myself in either and I can accept that you see this as the way forward for you.

    Have you ever asked for some psychological input to help you manage your condition? You seem to favour the low carb option and it seems to be the general consensus of low carbers here that it works
    Obviously you do not need to tell all and sundry here about your weight, HBA1c and eating habits but I am sure there is someone here who can help you via p.m. or even email to see if you can get this under control with a low carb approach. You need a buddy that you can bounce ideas off to see if you are getting it right. Only a suggestion Patch.

    This product does not seem to be available in the U.K.( Canada, USA and Australia have sites on a google search), except I did see some on ebay but whether that would be enough for the 8 weeks, I don't know.

    The trials were done on people who had not had diabetes for longer than 4 years and I wonder why this criteria was introduced? Was the condition easier to control at this period?

    Whatever you decide to do Patch, please be careful and seek your G.P.' advice so that you can make an informed decision.
     
  10. AliB

    AliB Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I actually feel that a lot of the reasons we are seeing so much diabetes is because we no longer eat in season.

    If you analyze when fruit and vegetables are avaiable in season and what types, it becomes apparent that the higher fructose fruits and the starchy carb veg is usally available at the end of the Summer and during the Autumn.

    The reason for this is to enable us to build up our fat levels for protection and 'storage' over the lean winter months.

    Whilst the 'lightweight' fruit and veg is available through the Summer when we don't need the fat stores, the 'heavier' fruit and veg is designed to help us get through the Winter.

    The trouble now is that the heavier foods are available all year round, and people are eating the starchy stuff all the time, even when the body doesn't need it. They also have an endless supply of sugar and glucose-producing foods all year round too, but we weren't designed to eat like this.

    Of course these people on the very low-calorie diet were able to reverse their diabetes - they were no longer eating the quantity of carbs to drive the sugar spikes. As many of the commenters on that article pointed out, lowering the carb content - even moderately, would likely, at least in some, have had a very similar outcome. You don't need to starve yourself to achieve that!

    The trouble with starving yourself is that a lot of the reason why people get such horrible 'complications' with Diabetes is because they are very nutritionally deficient. Starving yourself won't help that one jot, as you then get even less nutrition!

    The key is to remove the 'dead' food - the stuff that isn't giving us anything of any REAL value, and replace it with stuff that is. That is far more likely to support a reversal of diabetes than anything!

    I have seen diabetes reversed on all sorts of diets - from vegetarianism (Gabriel Couzens regime) to low-carb, high-fat, moderate protein, but the key is that whichever diet people choose to follow, they generally are very highly nutritious - and they all remove the sugars and starchy carbs - particularly the processed and commercially-made ones.

    As you say though Catherine - they hand-picked people who were relatively newly diagnosed, and that would have made a big difference. Those like Patch and I who have been diabetic for many years might not have had anything like the result they were looking for. It is noticeable that not all remained free of the diabetes - but then if they went back to eating the same food as before, then it would be pretty obvious that eventually the diabetes would come back. From that point of view, as the 600 calories would be unnatainable in the long-term - for maintenance of non-diabetic figures, then low, oe at the very least lower-carb would have to be the way to go.

    Like one of the commenters on the article I would like to have seen the food that was eaten during the study.

    I bet they were blooming starving......its a good job it only lasted 8 weeks! They probably drank gallons of water to get them through - and that would have helped too.
     
  11. AliB

    AliB Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Ps. When my digestion virtually collapsed and I could hardly eat anything, I probably wasn't able to get through much more than around 600 calories a day for a few months.

    I lost weight - but although my sugar levels came down finally into normal range, I still had to take insulin and certainly saw no indication of reversal at all, even though I appear to have no resistance any more.

    (That is one of the reason why I wonder if I have LADA, rather than type 2).

    Whether it will ever reverse as I keep going on this diet (other things have so you never know) remains to be seen. It certainly hasn't reversed in 8 weeks!
     
  12. clearviews

    clearviews · Well-Known Member

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    My focus has never been on calories. Someone on this discussion has kindly noted that 600 calories in this diet is equal to about 70gr of carbs and thought that was not a sustainable level.
    As I have said I do not know what my calorie content is as I only focus on carbs and my optimal level is 30gr per day, some days more and some less. I eat real food. A breakfast is sometimes a shake, sometimes I am not hungry so I don't have breakfast, but I eat vegetables and protein.
    When does it not become sustainable? I have been eating this way for almost 3 years and have no reason to stop.
    I don't need to be assisted to move around anywhere. Played tennis today. Did a Hazzard Reduction burn with the Rural Fire Service on Sunday hiking up and down a step path with canvas hoses, 2.5hrs of line dancing (I know, but I love the ladies I do it with) and 1 hr of aerobic exercise which I am supposed to lead next year. Then there is the dog and a puppy to walk aloing the beach.................... there is more but I won't bore you as retirement is discovering life all over again!
    I know that if I ever ate the "healthy food pyramid" way again, I would be in trouble and would need meds again. I initially began low GI, but that was not effective in bringing down my BGs as I had hoped but perhaps I had damaged my pancreas a lot though a top of 5.9 A1c said perhaps I hadn't.
    I know that each of us has different levels of (T2) diabetes and I seem to have found the best way for me.
     
  13. Etty

    Etty Prediabetes · Well-Known Member

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    clearviews, it was the calories I was referring to, not the carbs--70g seems a very comfortable level to me. Like you I have been on less than that for about 2 1/2 years, and don't intend to stop. But you are so wonderfully active, and I wonder if you do any muscle building exercise? (I've heard it improves insulin sensitivity). I envy you those walkies on the beach, how lucky you are.
     
  14. humph

    humph · Well-Known Member

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    The reason Optifast was used is that is proven to rid the liver of fat. The effect of this diet is to lose fat from the liver and pancreas. The findings were that the loss of the fat around pancreas led to the pancreas returning to normal operation.

    The diet does not need to be continued after 8 weeks and participants returned to the previous diet with only advice on portion size. The paper states that the participants were supervised over the phone, the biggest problem seems to be motivation, 3 people didn't complete the course.

    Patch,

    Optifast is only available in the UK on prescription. I have ordered mine via ebay, I have enough for 4 weeks and will order more later. I will talk to my consultant and see if I can get a private prescription first. The shakes com in 54g and 40g sizes, 54g are 200cal and 40g are 150cal, so 2 54g and 1 40g give 550cal and the remaining 50cal is made up of green vegetables.
     
  15. Patch

    Patch Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Thanks humph - much appreciated!
     
  16. catherinecherub

    catherinecherub · Guest

    This document, produced in 2009, before the "CURE" arrived, by Endocrinologists, suggests remission is a better term. It also suggests guidelines for the criteria of remission. There were three sub groups,
    Partial, Complete, Prolonged.


    http://www.endocrinetoday.com/view.aspx?rid=50342
     
  17. Patch

    Patch Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    That makes sense, CC. If after going into remission, one eats food that is known to be detrimental to your health, you can't expect to have complete or prolonged remission, right?
     
  18. catherinecherub

    catherinecherub · Guest

    Agreed Patch. The article also agrees that you would still have to have diabetes checks for the possible progression of the condition.

    You could always become a tennis pro and then you could eat 6,000 calories per day. :lol: :lol: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... ds-newsxml
     
  19. bowell

    bowell · Well-Known Member

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    For info

    looks like Newcastle study was just the standard initial phase, Optifast Plan

    http://www.optifast.com.au/about-optifast-vlcd.aspx
     
  20. catherinecherub

    catherinecherub · Guest

    This is worth reading Patch, from the GI newsletter and their opinion on the "CURE". Also worth looking at the link to "The Diogenes Study".

    http://ginews.blogspot.com/#GISP
     
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