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Reverse Type 2 Diabetes with a LCHF diet. Is this a myth?

Discussion in 'Ask A Question' started by Little Bird, Nov 23, 2019.

  1. Little Bird

    Little Bird · Well-Known Member

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    from Prof Taylor's research I too understood that reversal was a result of decrease in liver and pancreatic fat, and that the means of fat removal was irrelevant as long as it occurred rapidly. Because of this when I began reading about other people's experiences I had expected to see lots of people saying they had reversed their diabetes with LCHF so that they were less adversely affected by carb. I was then puzzled to see that a lot of people said they still were unable to eat much carbs and needed to stick to LCHF indefinitely. Of course that doesn't mean there aren't any people who have reversed to be able to tolerate more carbs.
    I read the article posted by Brunneria and it was very interesting indeed.
     
  2. Little Bird

    Little Bird · Well-Known Member

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    Based on everything I have read this is the kind of experience I expected to read more about but didn't as much as I had thought I would. Anyway much more importantly thank you for sharing your experience zand especially if you felt a bit reluctant to. I hope you are always able to maintain your healthy balance, it's great to hear such a positive testimonial. You offer hope and as someone else here said that's important
     
  3. Redshank

    Redshank Prediabetes · Well-Known Member

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    In the Direct study, 36 % of participants were in remission after 2 years so it doesn’t work for all.
    The original study did not look at people who were not overweight, but many assumptions are made extrapolating to this group. I believe that Prof. Taylor is starting some research with non-overweight participants so it will be interesting to see if the theory of fat in the pancreas applies to this group as well
     
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  4. NicoleC1971

    NicoleC1971 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Hi and welcome. Great questions and I doubt a doctor will bother having this discussion with you. I always want to know how my type 1 diabetes work but the whole debate on diet is fascinating though apt to be partisan at times when keto or carnivores/the Ruminati discuss this with vegans! Nutritional science is young and notoriously hard to prove a hypothesis in.
    My take on the human diet is that whilst we evolved to be omnivorous but eating meat enabled us to grow big brains eventually leading to us taming wild grasses into crops, then becoming 'civillised' and eventually inventing foodstuffs that we mainly fail to thrive on.
    The amount of grains would have depended on your local agriculture thus some humans have more starch processing enzymes (amalayse) than others and many cultures have thrived by eating large quantities of starch whereas the converse is true for others (Aborigines and Inuits) thus there is a variance in how much starch we can tolerate before it gets stored in the liver and around the pancreas thus leaving to metabolic problems such as type 2.
    On the other hand, the most recent part of our history involves eating large amounts of processed carbs and sugars at the expense of nutrient dense whole foods including animal fats due to the parallel fear of saturated fat leading to CVD (a failed hypothesis). Many people have causally linked this change in our diet to the rise of diabobesity (see Robert Lustig on Sugar). The contention of such people as Lustig or Jason fung is that obesity does not cause diabetes but is a downstream effect of a hormonal imbalance driven by excess insulin with excess insulin patterns driven by excess sugar (a fructose overload that the liver cannot handle without fattening) and/or processed carbs needing to be stored as fat by insulin until the person's individual fat storage capacity is reached. Some people can store lots of sub cutaneous fat but don't become diabetic and this is perhaps why. Others are surprised to be diagnosed when still slim (e.g. Michael Mosley).
    So any way of eating that rapidly strips down excess stored liver fat by minimising insulin requirement will work to increase someone's insulin sensitivity (as will building more muscle). this could be the Newcastle protocol, fasting or low carb/high fat and the more common commercial diets could still work (i.e. low fat, moderate carb) depending on where the person is starting from because all diets restrict carbs to some extent. However many people feel that low carb/high fat is the best at being sustainable as a lifestyle rather than a quick fix followed by difficulty in establishing an eating pattern that doesn't result in rebounding back into weight gain and/or high blood sugars. the latter is anecdotal but if you go to Public Health Consortium's site you will find comparison of the dietary trials comparing low carb with low fat diets etc.
    As for the term reversal vs remission, that's semantic IMO! The work is in recovering normal insulin glucose levels and then finding a way to keep them normal. And there's nothing as powerful as diet and lifestyle for that but some people will need more time and drugs or even bariatric surgery based on individual factors such as level of IR and its duration, pancreatic function or simply an addiction to carbs!
     
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  5. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    We know that some bgl meters have a sensitvity to Malitol and Sorbitol. and indeed the ISO tests were upgraded to include a specific test for these contaminants

    As regards the sugars Maltose etc I have only anecdotal evidence. I am partial to the occasional faggot in my time and the ones purchased from the butcher do me fine. But I did try some frozen ones from the supermarket that my parents used to feed me on, and these spiked me unexpectedly and quite severely. It is only a naked beefburger in gravy after all, so where did the sugar come from. The listed carbs content was reasonable considering it is a meat based product, and there was no sugar declared. Investigations with the manufacturer revealed that they do not need to declare Maltose either as a carbohydrate or a sugar on the contents listing since according to current advice, it is not metabolised, so should have no effecr. But it does on me! I have repeated this experiment and repeated the high bgl results so it is not a misread. And I know dextrose wass used to treat hypos in my mothers day so it must be partially absorbed at least. But its cousin fructose is not metabolised like a carb,

    It makes sense evolutionaily that fructose gets put down as lipid fat directly, Fruit is seasonal and comes before winter, so it makes sense for our bodies to pur it into long term storage in the adipocytes for later use. Lipid fat is a more efficient way of storing energy. I liken it as such. An open hearth fire uses kindling and paper for a quick burst of energy, but is soon burns out.. For long term heat output we use coal or anthracite. In between there are heat logs that are made of paper but burn like coal. So fructose is the food equivalent of heat logs.
     
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  6. Little Bird

    Little Bird · Well-Known Member

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    Hi NicoleC, thanks for your fascinating and insightful post, you sound very well read!
     
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  7. StewartH

    StewartH Type 1 · Active Member

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    Hi @Little Bird
    We are just coming out of a period of 4 or 5 decades when the regular wisdom and best medical advice was that if someone became type 2 diabetic this was an inescapable condition and it was considered normal that the health of the individual would steadily deteriorate over their remaining years. Medication would help keeping blood sugar levels down but not to a level that would ensure continuing health. As conditions worsened the subject would have been put on insulin with all the fun that it brings to life. During this time of course they were recommending the subject kept eating carbs as part of a healthy low fat diet.

    We are in a time of change. Extraordinarily, this change is mostly driven from grass roots, the people around you on this forum and many others. Many, like myself, are choosing a diet against the advice of their doctors, because of the enormous benefits it gives to everyday life. It needs workijg at but it is well worth it.

    From that perspective, consider that use of the term 'reversal'. Having been told you would have to take medication for the rest of your life, you find a way to stop taking it. A reversal surely.
    OK, its not the magic fix that puts everything back to how it was before....but a great deal better that the alternative.

    Welcome to the club.
     
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  8. Little Bird

    Little Bird · Well-Known Member

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    Hi
    great analogy !

    Oldvatr, apologies for going off topic but may i ask you a question?I i was reading a fascinating thread last night which you posted, I think it was you. It was late and I was tired so I thought I'd leave it till tomorrow but I can't seem to find it again. I can't remember the title but it was about some research by Valter Longo in which he found that beta cell function could be r regenerated with a fasting diet. Could you help me out please?
     
  9. Little Bird

    Little Bird · Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for making me welcome Stuart.
     
  10. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Wasn't me or my thread. Valter Longo is noted for selling a very expensive diet plan PROLON at $300 a 5 day pop to be repeated three times a year until you drop dead. The diet is a plant based prepared meals plan that is apparently based on hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of scientific studies. I am normally good at ferreting out studies, but his contributions are in virtual reality somewhere since they do not occur in any archives I normally use.

    The plan claims to mimic a a water only fast but provides all the nutrients we need. Err? My alarm bells are ringing on this one. Suggest giving it a miss.
     
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  11. kokhongw

    kokhongw I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    You are probably referring to this
    https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/th...cell-regeneration-to-reverse-diabetes.116847/
     
  12. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Gosh it was my thread after all. I did not run with it since it seemed to be bssically doing what Jason Fung has been promoting i.e. Intermittent fssting. But Jasons advice is cheaper to implement, and has far less of the hype that Valter uses to impress his readers. Knowing Valter is running a significant meal replacement diet plan on the back of this research makes me cautious of claims being made.

    The study was made using mice, and is making claims that a diet can regenerate beta cells in T1D. Forget the pseudo science bit, if this paper is valid then it needs much more work before it can be tested on humans, who after all have a very different endocrine system to mice. He was vey quick in launchinng his diet plan based on these claims, so I still advise caution before getting too far into this gentlemans web. He has a very commercial profile on the web if you get my meaning. He is not showing up as a qualified endocrinologist for example, so his use of that jargon suggests he is using it to blind us with science. His profile on Quackwatch is interesting, and wikkepedia does not think too highly of him either.

    His expertise is in ageing, and not diabetes. He may have solved the T1D issue, but I have my doubts. If you are looking for the magic bullet I suggest it is not to be found in that report.
     
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    #152 Oldvatr, Nov 27, 2019 at 1:45 AM
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
  13. kokhongw

    kokhongw I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Prolon makes fasting fashionable and acceptable to the medical establishment... The rest of us can just fast...
     
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  14. Little Bird

    Little Bird · Well-Known Member

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  15. Little Bird

    Little Bird · Well-Known Member

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    I am curious to have a read of it but I couldn't agree with you more, extreme caution is advisable with such a radical plan. Probably doesn't taste too great either.
     
  16. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    What concerns me is that the diet plan is directly following on from the research done by the same person, so there seems to be no independancy to offer consumer protection. The sales pitch is notable for its lack of information on safety or possible side effects. If you look at the diet shakes used for the Newwcastle Diet, or the DIRECT diet or Counterbalance, then the suppliers of the shakes give a full nutritional breakdown of what is in their potion. So you can work out if it meets your RDA nutrtional needs over the period of the diet. The other shake makers also include safety information on possible ketosis which is possible on an 800kcal diet plan. Instead we have to rely on this guys word that the potion will meet all your needs and is safe: again without any external oversight. This is what makes me suspicious that this guy is only in it for the money. The whole sales pitch has an air of snake oil.
     
  17. kokhongw

    kokhongw I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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  18. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. A quick scan down the nutrition listings show that the diet is devoid of iron. It has the standard folate additive as required by law for fortified foods. The Omega-3 supplement is DHA so is not as effective as the EPA variant. The Vitamin A is beta carotene which is not true vit A and is not in a readily absorbable form for us. There is no Vit D3 or Vit K2 in the additive, Not sure of calcium intake.

    Although low carb it is probably above the ketosis level for most.

    The diet over 5 days will not harm you, but is definitely not suitable for use over a longer period (suggest price would limit that to a certain extent) So it contains more nutrients than plain water but has to be a quickfix blast to shock the system. Ultra low fat means participants are likely to be feeling hungry during the diet period so will faithfully mimic fasting in that respect.

    Since it is Plant Based, it does not contain choline so the body will have difficulty repairing any inflmmation damage or damaged cholesterol or mitochondria. There is also no L carnitine or triptosan so there will be a drop in energy levels to be expected since many of the added amino acids will not be metabolised properly. I have not checked the fibre issue, but it looks like this diet will suffer from the smoothie effect in that it is a soup based diet so much of the fibre will be processed into mush.
     
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  19. Honeyend

    Honeyend · Well-Known Member

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    Hi, Littlebird.

    I always think when you are learning about diabetes Dr Unwin is the palace to start. Dr Unwin, if I have right clip starts with the patient who was not over weight, but had symptoms of Type 2

    He is a GP, and has seen what a low carb diet can do, and has seen the results in his patients. I also think he has a very clear presentation style. If you follow the youtube ball of string, it leads you to other talks how low carb can improve other things like you liver function, which can be a sign of fatty liver.
    There are also tecnical presentations on youtube by other Drs, of the other benifits of low carb, it depends how far you want to go. The one on the role of fructose on the brain is a recent favorite of mine, if you studied chemistry you should like it.


    If you are looking for something thats going to make you never think about what you eat again, you are going to be disappointed. Diet can improve your blood results and prevent any futher damage, so some would say they have the reversed the potential risks of Type 2.
    I have diabetes because I was very ill and part of my pancreas died. I could have died, so what ever I have left of it I am going to look after. If you have Type2, you have to protect what fuction you have left, losing weight, if you are over weight and cutting the carbs is the only proven way to do that without drug intervention. You can decide based on the evidence what you would rather do.
    In my job I have to question all that I am told, and I always believed what I had been told had been based on research, I now have discovered a lot of these 'truths' were based on opinion.So I think its really good that you take a good look at all the evidence.
    I really love this one, a decontruction of the EAT-Lancet report.



     
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  20. Listlad

    Listlad Prediabetes · BANNED

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    Same as me. Maximum of 130 grams a day but often under 100grams. It gives me flexibility.

    At both of my 2 surgeries the term remission has been frowned upon. Symptom reversal is more palatable to some and reflects what actually happens. After all it is the reversal of the diabetic conditions in each of us that counts.
     
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