Reverse Type 2 Diabetes with a LCHF diet. Is this a myth?

aealexandrou

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117
Type of diabetes
Type 2
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Tablets (oral)
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As I understand it T2D, and in deed other insulin related metabolic disorders have one or a combination of two issues (usually both). First, rejection of the cells of the insulin caused by excessive high long term insulin levels. This can happen when fat or thin. Second, fat accumulation in and around the organs, particularly the liver and pancreas which inhibits the ability of insulin to reach its target cells. Some people accumulate fat in areas where they don't inhibit insulin from working sufficiently in the areas which will trigger T2D, which is why some people can be happily fat without showing signs of metabolic disorders, although they are becoming increasingly rare.
Doctors, scientists and other researchers like to works with calories becaus it provides a scientific means of measuring their work and they can maintain consistancy within the sample group. The Newcastle diet was, as an example, a strict calorie restricted diet. But the participants were under constant medical supervision and given the necessary supplements to make up for mineral and vitamin deficiencies. We cannot do that in the real world.
The other issue with across the board calarie counting is that if you don't cross over into a low carb/keto diet and stay a sugar burner the body will lower its metabolism (e.g you become less active and sluggish) to accommodate the reduced sugar/energy intake. In which case you will lose fat initially but afterwards you restart the cycle of fat storing and put on weight again, usually more aggressively.
A ketogenic metabolism is the natural healthy state which we all should strive to have, whatever route you take to get there.
 

DCUKMod

Master
Staff Member
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14,298
Type of diabetes
I reversed my Type 2
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Diet only
The thing about the Newcastle Diet (ND) was it was initiated by Professor Taylor, not as a cure-all or a means of reversing T2 diabetes. He started the work with the ND in order to begin to understand why many people living with T2 returned to producing non-diabetic blood sugar levels in a very short time, post surgery.

Once his very, very initial findings became know, folks started to look at it quizzically. If you want to read of folks who lost vert little weight, stayed on the diet only a short while, and whose bloods have returned to non-diabetic levels, you could start with Richard Doughty. Dr Google will bring him to your world if you ask him.

With respect @Little Bird , you appear to really want to find a position where your own T2 is cured/in remission/rversed or resolved (choose your own word), yet you also appear to be doing little, in terms of actual actions to achieve that.

It seems to me that your current approach of inaction is unlikely to achieve your desired objective.

In the words of Billy Connolly in one of his monologues,.............. "Do something. Do something. Do something."
 

Flora123

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Messages
1,078
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Hi Lucielocket61 (great name by the way!) Its great that yours blood sugars are under control and you are happy, but my question is, if you still react to carbohydrates with a high spike then have you reversed your diabetes or are you controlling it with your diet? Either way sounds like your doing great!

It’s just words. Some people use reverse which to me suggests cure. Remission is more accurate and assumes it may return.... which it will without controlling carb intake. However I prefer to call it well controlled. If I eat high carb I find my bloods spikes and yes if I continued to eat potatoes, rice etc next Hba1c would be creeping up and up.
 
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Little Bird

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110
The thing about the Newcastle Diet (ND) was it was initiated by Professor Taylor, not as a cure-all or a means of reversing T2 diabetes. He started the work with the ND in order to begin to understand why many people living with T2 returned to producing non-diabetic blood sugar levels in a very short time, post surgery.

Once his very, very initial findings became know, folks started to look at it quizzically. If you want to read of folks who lost vert little weight, stayed on the diet only a short while, and whose bloods have returned to non-diabetic levels, you could start with Richard Doughty. Dr Google will bring him to your world if you ask him.

With respect @Little Bird , you appear to really want to find a position where your own T2 is cured/in remission/rversed or resolved (choose your own word), yet you also appear to be doing little, in terms of actual actions to achieve that.

It seems to me that your current approach of inaction is unlikely to achieve your desired objective.

In the words of Billy Connolly in one of his monologues,.............. "Do something. Do something. Do something."
I posed a question about the nature of diabetes reversal as I think it is little understood and open to personal interpretation. As such I was and still am curious to learn more. I am a very curious person. It is quite a leap to make any assumptions about how I personally deal with my own diabetes given that I have said nothing about this. Your assumptions are just your assumptions and say nothing about anyone else.
 

lucylocket61

Expert
Messages
6,435
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
I posed a question about the nature of diabetes reversal as I think it is little understood and open to personal interpretation. As such I was and still am curious to learn more. I am a very curious person. It is quite a leap to make any assumptions about how I personally deal with my own diabetes given that I have said nothing about this. Your assumptions are just your assumptions and say nothing about anyone else.
I misunderstood. I thought your thread was about you. I now see that you are having a general theoretical discussion.

Do you want to talk about how you can use our knowledge and experience to help you to make decisions on your own diabetic management? I am happy to help.
 

Caprock94

Well-Known Member
Messages
313
Yes, but is there any evidence that LCHF without weight loss results in loss of fat from liver and pancreas?

Yes. My fatty liver (according to my liver enzyme blood tests) reversed in a few short weeks with the weight loss. Dr. Taylor also measured liver and pancreas fat loss in his study I believe.
 

DCUKMod

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Staff Member
Messages
14,298
Type of diabetes
I reversed my Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
I posed a question about the nature of diabetes reversal as I think it is little understood and open to personal interpretation. As such I was and still am curious to learn more. I am a very curious person. It is quite a leap to make any assumptions about how I personally deal with my own diabetes given that I have said nothing about this. Your assumptions are just your assumptions and say nothing about anyone else.

My "assumption"was in response to your own post #96, stating, "Therein lies the problem. Analysis paralysis has always been my happy place!".

However, I'm not here to bicker with anyone, so I'll leave you to.
 

Little Bird

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Messages
110
My "assumption"was in response to your own post #96, stating, "Therein lies the problem. Analysis paralysis has always been my happy place!".

However, I'm not here to bicker with anyone, so I'll leave you to.
Meaning that I like to analyse things. It related to my personality not my diabetes. Your own words say something about you no else.
 

Antje77

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Retired Moderator
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19,418
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LADA
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Insulin
Meaning that I like to analyse things. It related to my personality not my diabetes. Your own words say something about you no else.
The paralysis part of analysis paralysis is easily interpreted as not doing anything because of over analysing. Nowhere in this thread have you said you're not taking action, but please try to see it from the reader's side. DCUKMod and many others mainly urged you to act on your diabetes and not be stalled by paralysis or semantics.

I have no clue how you're dealing with your diabetes, as you haven't told.
I fully agree reversal is a misleading term, because reversing means going back to a previous state. The previous state in this case being not diabetic; having the ability to eat whatever and not get funny blood sugars. Which is not what most people mean when they say they have reversed their diabetes.
Instead, they mean they have reverted to normal blood glucose levels.
If you take the meaning of the word diabetes mellitus literally, they are completely right, as it means honey sweet pee. In fact, that part is reversed way before reversing diabetic bg's, as you only start to pee glucose above 11mmol/l or so.

I would ask you to try to switch your focus from the lie of 'reversal' to seeing what you can do about your diabetes, but possibly you're doing both at the same time, we do not know without you telling us.

Personally, I get frustrated with illogical use of language. I try to keep that hobby horse outside my daily life, including this forum, as neither my daily life nor the forum are filled with linguists. The hobby horse is let out on several facebook groups and with a select couple of close friends. It helps.

(disclaimer: please appreciate that English isn't my first language. I can be a language nerd and still use funny syntax and make weird mistakes.)
 
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JohnEGreen

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As reversing diabetes is a term that usually taken to mean bringing about a significant long-term improvement in insulin sensitivity in people with type 2 diabetes.

Yes it is possible and no it is not a myth.
 
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kokhongw

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2,394
Type of diabetes
I reversed my Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Just for clarity I am neither criticising or advocating a HCLF diet or lifestyle. I think it is incontrovertible that such a diet is excellent for diabetes management. My issue is with the term reversal or remission from diabetes as I think it can lead to false hope. I suspect all here know how devastating a diabetes diagnosis can be and then if we are told we can reverse it that gives us hope for a life free of the dictates of diabetes. It’s the seeming offer of freedom that the term reversal implies that is problematic I feel. If the reversal is contingent upon lifetime adherence to a diet someone does not like or cannot follow for whatever reason they are still being dictated to by diabetes and that is not freedom. Perhaps it is better to say you can control your diabetes through carb restriction but not necessarily reverse it to an earlier state. Perhaps?

Basically what are we reversing and what is a normal diet/lifestyle?

Carbs Lite, Fats Friendly, insulin sparing lifestyle reverses the chronic progression of T2D and free many of us from a lifetime of medication while allowing us to maintain near normal glucose levels that had eluded countless even with the most intensive medication and exercise regime. Just have a look at Virta's page or Dr Unwin success with his community. Decades of needless medication...resolved in matters of weeks or months.

Was the mainstream recommendation way of eating 250g of carbs daily really the norm that we must return to? Perhaps THAT is the myth...
 
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Little Bird

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110
The paralysis part of analysis paralysis is easily interpreted as not doing anything because of over analysing. Nowhere in this thread have you said you're not taking action, but please try to see it from the reader's side. DCUKMod and many others mainly urged you to act on your diabetes and not be stalled by paralysis or semantics.

I have no clue how you're dealing with your diabetes, as you haven't told.
I fully agree reversal is a misleading term, because reversing means going back to a previous state. The previous state in this case being not diabetic; having the ability to eat whatever and not get funny blood sugars. Which is not what most people mean when they say they have reversed their diabetes.
Instead, they mean they have reverted to normal blood glucose levels.
If you take the meaning of the word diabetes mellitus literally, they are completely right, as it means honey sweet pee. In fact, that part is reversed way before reversing diabetic bg's, as you only start to pee glucose above 11mmol/l or so.

I would ask you to try to switch your focus from the lie of 'reversal' to seeing what you can do about your diabetes, but possibly you're doing both at the same time, we do not know without you telling us.

Personally, I get frustrated with illogical use of language. I try to keep that hobby horse outside my daily life, including this forum, as neither my daily life nor the forum are filled with linguists. The hobby horse is let out on several facebook groups and with a select couple of close friends. It helps.

(disclaimer: please appreciate that English isn't my first language. I can be a language nerd and still use funny syntax and make weird mistakes.)


Hi Antje, thank you for your reply.

I take your point about how others interpret the term analysis paralysis.

I hadn't heard that term before and I rather liked it, I thought it described me very well. I studied chemistry at university when I was young (though my career went in a very different direction) and it taught me to always be open minded and to question, challenge, analyse and to never accept things at face value and never to make assumptions on very little evidence. This can mean that I often find it difficult to make up my own mind when there is a lot of conflicting evidence and viewpoints etc. so I can often stay stuck or paralyzed in the analysis of it. So I thought the term analysis paralysis quite apt. I tend to apply this caution in all areas of my life including with people, and in my current profession making assumptions and judgements about people (and dishing out advice) is generally considered to be unethical and unprofessional behaviour. These things can be harmful to others, so I must admit it does bug me when other people make judgements and assumptions about people without really knowing anything about them. However I can see how others may have interpreted the analysis paralysis to mean I am paralysed with regard to dealing with my diabetes, but if I have caused offence to DCUK Mod or anyone else for that matter then I apologise, unreservedly.

My original post was intended to open up a discussion (not an argument) about the question of diabetes reversal because there seems to be much confusion about it and many differing points of view about it and I was, and still am, very interested to hear other peoples thoughts and viewpoints. For me personally such a discussion is both stimulating and informative. I purposely avoided sharing my own experience for a number of reasons. For one, I wasn’t looking for advice or guidance and didn’t want the discussion to be about me but rather the question being asked. Two I don’t want to be labelled and classified as belonging to any particular camp or group like low carb or vegan or whatever else. Three, and most importantly of all, I didn’t want my own experience to influence anyone else as I don’t think my particular case is very typical.

As it seems to matter I will share.

I was diagnosed Type 2 in early June this year, my numbers were only slightly into the diabetic range and was told it was because I was overweight and insulin resistant, most likely because of fat in my liver. I was rather shocked as there is no diabetes at all in my family despite some of my family members also being overweight. But its not that simple of course. At that time I hadn't yet done any research into diets and diabetes management etc. and didn’t know much about it. I thought the first and most obvious stating point would be to cut out the junk and start exercising. So that’s what I did. I stopped eating all the obvious rubbish like cakes, biscuits, crisps, pastry and ice cream etc. I was quite unfit so I began with just walking every day. Around this time I started to read about all the various approaches to diabetes like low carb, Newcastle diet etc., but before I was done I found I didn’t need any of these approaches. Simply by cutting out the junk and excising every day I found my weight was coming down and with it so too were my blood sugar readings. Literally by the end of June I was consistently getting normal readings. I recently had a blood test and my A1c was normal. My doctor said keep doing what your doing.

At the moment I don’t eat any kind of sugary foods and am careful about potatoes, rice and pasta, they are very starchy, but I can easily eat pulses and grains like buckwheat and quinoa without any ill effect. I freely eat all veggies and most fruits but not all and I exercise most days. So far this is working for me but whether or not it I will always be able to eat this way remains to be seen. So am I cured? Is my diabetes truly reversed? Well I suppose that depends upon who you ask. My doctor classes me as in remission (whatever that means) but will this always be the case, I simply do not know.

As I said I have been very reluctant to share this with you because I fear that other people will read this and think that this approach may work for them too. It may not. From what I have read on the forums here at DCUK and elsewhere I suspect that my case is not very typical. The readings that got me my diagnosis were very close to the borderline and as such seem not have needed an aggressive approach. I have wondered if maybe my diagnosis was false though my doctor assured me that it was correct based on the numbers. Ill leave you to form your own conclusions about this.

I think it worth repeating that though my approach worked for me it may not work for you! I was lucky I got off lightly but your diabetes may need something more aggressive than just giving up the junk, though it is perhaps a good starting place until you have found your own path. In any case I do believe that exercise and emotional as well as physical self care are always important.

As a result of all this I have developed a passionate interest in diabetes and all that goes with it. It is probably obvious by now that I am both puzzled and fascinated by the concept of reversal, remission or what ever you choose to call it, so I thought I'd ask what others think about it. I have really enjoyed reading all your posts, there is much food for thought and further analysis paralysis!
 
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Antje77

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19,418
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LADA
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As I said I have been very reluctant to share this with you because I fear that other people will read this and think that this approach may work for them too. It may not.
Don't worry about that, we have quite a few members who have gotten out of the (pre)diabetic range with relatively light measures, and besides, you are sensible enough to make sure not to tell people your approach is a cure all.

To my thinking, reading a success story like yours can be very beneficial to some new members, as it shows it's not always necessary to go full out keto or such, and it also shows the benefit of using a glucose meter to see how your particular diabetes behaves.
I think it worth repeating that though my approach worked for me it may not work for you!
Right you are, I eat a moderately lowish carb diet usually but I still need lots of insulin. May have something to do with being T1 though :D
 
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JohnEGreen

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As I said I have been very reluctant to share this with you because I fear that other people will read this and think that this approach may work for them too.
Most people here realise that there is no one strategy for tackling diabetes that suits or works for all basically every one has to work out for themselves what is best for them quite often empirically.

So do not be reticent about what worked for you as it may or may not work for others they would have to if they wish try it and see if it doesn't help them then they can always try something else you may have chanced on something that others have not thought of until you have brought it to light..

For a while I had thought you were asking out of idle curiosity I see now that is not the case good luck for your future research and hope all is and remains good for you.
 

Dark Horse

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Yes. My fatty liver (according to my liver enzyme blood tests) reversed in a few short weeks with the weight loss. Dr. Taylor also measured liver and pancreas fat loss in his study I believe.
I was posing a question about loss of fat from liver and pancreas WITHOUT weight loss.
 

JohnEGreen

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Surly if you take the fat from the liver you have a liver that weighs less there for a person who if nothing else has changed for weighs less minutely may be but less.
 

DCUKMod

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14,298
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Hi Antje, thank you for your reply.

I take your point about how others interpret the term analysis paralysis.

I hadn't heard that term before and I rather liked it, I thought it described me very well. I studied chemistry at university when I was young (though my career went in a very different direction) and it taught me to always be open minded and to question, challenge, analyse and to never accept things at face value and never to make assumptions on very little evidence. This can mean that I often find it difficult to make up my own mind when there is a lot of conflicting evidence and viewpoints etc. so I can often stay stuck or paralyzed in the analysis of it. So I thought the term analysis paralysis quite apt. I tend to apply this caution in all areas of my life including with people, and in my current profession making assumptions and judgements about people (and dishing out advice) is generally considered to be unethical and unprofessional behaviour. These things can be harmful to others, so I must admit it does bug me when other people make judgements and assumptions about people without really knowing anything about them. However I can see how others may have interpreted the analysis paralysis to mean I am paralysed with regard to dealing with my diabetes, but if I have caused offence to DCUK Mod or anyone else for that matter then I apologise, unreservedly.

My original post was intended to open up a discussion (not an argument) about the question of diabetes reversal because there seems to be much confusion about it and many differing points of view about it and I was, and still am, very interested to hear other peoples thoughts and viewpoints. For me personally such a discussion is both stimulating and informative. I purposely avoided sharing my own experience for a number of reasons. For one, I wasn’t looking for advice or guidance and didn’t want the discussion to be about me but rather the question being asked. Two I don’t want to be labelled and classified as belonging to any particular camp or group like low carb or vegan or whatever else. Three, and most importantly of all, I didn’t want my own experience to influence anyone else as I don’t think my particular case is very typical.

As it seems to matter I will share.

I was diagnosed Type 2 in early June this year, my numbers were only slightly into the diabetic range and was told it was because I was overweight and insulin resistant, most likely because of fat in my liver. I was rather shocked as there is no diabetes at all in my family despite some of my family members also being overweight. But its not that simple of course. At that time I hadn't yet done any research into diets and diabetes management etc. and didn’t know much about it. I thought the first and most obvious stating point would be to cut out the junk and start exercising. So that’s what I did. I stopped eating all the obvious rubbish like cakes, biscuits, crisps, pastry and ice cream etc. I was quite unfit so I began with just walking every day. Around this time I started to read about all the various approaches to diabetes like low carb, Newcastle diet etc., but before I was done I found I didn’t need any of these approaches. Simply by cutting out the junk and excising every day I found my weight was coming down and with it so too were my blood sugar readings. Literally by the end of June I was consistently getting normal readings. I recently had a blood test and my A1c was normal. My doctor said keep doing what your doing.

At the moment I don’t eat any kind of sugary foods and am careful about potatoes, rice and pasta, they are very starchy, but I can easily eat pulses and grains like buckwheat and quinoa without any ill effect. I freely eat all veggies and most fruits but not all and I exercise most days. So far this is working for me but whether or not it I will always be able to eat this way remains to be seen. So am I cured? Is my diabetes truly reversed? Well I suppose that depends upon who you ask. My doctor classes me as in remission (whatever that means) but will this always be the case, I simply do not know.

As I said I have been very reluctant to share this with you because I fear that other people will read this and think that this approach may work for them too. It may not. From what I have read on the forums here at DCUK and elsewhere I suspect that my case is not very typical. The readings that got me my diagnosis were very close to the borderline and as such seem not have needed an aggressive approach. I have wondered if maybe my diagnosis was false though my doctor assured me that it was correct based on the numbers. Ill leave you to form your own conclusions about this.

I think it worth repeating that though my approach worked for me it may not work for you! I was lucky I got off lightly but your diabetes may need something more aggressive than just giving up the junk, though it is perhaps a good starting place until you have found your own path. In any case I do believe that exercise and emotional as well as physical self care are always important.

As a result of all this I have developed a passionate interest in diabetes and all that goes with it. It is probably obvious by now that I am both puzzled and fascinated by the concept of reversal, remission or what ever you choose to call it, so I thought I'd ask what others think about it. I have really enjoyed reading all your posts, there is much food for thought and further analysis paralysis!

Little Bird, thank you for your apology. It is accepted, and we'll move on.

In terms of you being "atypically diabetic", I'm positive almost everyone on this website finds themselves to be so, in one form or another. In my view, Type 2 diabetes is a portfolio condition. It isn't quite as simple as pick 5 or more signs or symptoms from the list and a person becomes T2, but no is it as simple as be over x years old, "achieve" an A1c of 48 or more and you become T2. There are far too many other variables on the table - including comorbidities and polypharmacy, to name but two.

Talking T2s in this instance; I bet if everyone out there talked about foods we liked, and didn't like and foods that liked or didn't like us, and our very own dietary blood sugar rocket fuels, you would actually find a massive range of approaches being followed. One size doesn't fit all, nor does two, three or even 20.

Each one if us must find our way forward, but on a site, such as this, where people come of their own free will to seek and give support for a condition they wish they didn't have, when people as "what works", it is natural the responses will be of what has worked for them. That is just one of the ways those new to the condition can gain hope, and for me, hope is a small word, but of huge importance.

I wish you continuing good fortune in managing your condition, and living a good life. We only pass this way once, so, for me, getting busy living is the way forward.
 

lucylocket61

Expert
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6,435
Type of diabetes
Type 2
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Little Bird, thank you for your apology. It is accepted, and we'll move on.

In terms of you being "atypically diabetic", I'm positive almost everyone on this website finds themselves to be so, in one form or another. In my view, Type 2 diabetes is a portfolio condition. It isn't quite as simple as pick 5 or more signs or symptoms from the list and a person becomes T2, but no is it as simple as be over x years old, "achieve" an A1c of 48 or more and you become T2. There are far too many other variables on the table - including comorbidities and polypharmacy, to name but two.

Talking T2s in this instance; I bet if everyone out there talked about foods we liked, and didn't like and foods that liked or didn't like us, and our very own dietary blood sugar rocket fuels, you would actually find a massive range of approaches being followed. One size doesn't fit all, nor does two, three or even 20.

Each one if us must find our way forward, but on a site, such as this, where people come of their own free will to seek and give support for a condition they wish they didn't have, when people as "what works", it is natural the responses will be of what has worked for them. That is just one of the ways those new to the condition can gain hope, and for me, hope is a small word, but of huge importance.

I wish you continuing good fortune in managing your condition, and living a good life. We only pass this way once, so, for me, getting busy living is the way forward.
As I understand it, this is primarily a support forum?
 
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Dark Horse

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Surly if you take the fat from the liver you have a liver that weighs less there for a person who if nothing else has changed for weighs less minutely may be but less.
Theoretically, yes, but it would not be enough to be measured on home scales. I was assuming that the members here would only have home scales to monitor their weight with. The original remark by @zand was that members here had similar 'reversals' with LCHF but with little or no weight loss. I was just asking for confirmation that Zand was saying that some people had followed LCHF for a while, had little or no weight loss but were then able to eat a carbohydrate-containing meal without their blood glucose reaching diabetic levels post-meal.