Reversed or Cured?

bulkbiker said:

I'm not so sure about your being "one of the lucky ones" its just that most people don't get told this or find it out for themselves and instead follow their doctors advice to take the pills and almost forget about it. These are the unfortunates whose Type 2 slowly progressively worsens and leads to all the nasties we are warned about.

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Reading your post, I actually feel doubly lucky. When my doctor gave me the diagnosis, he said he did not want to prescribe any drugs to start with. He asked me to go on a low-carb diet and increase the amount of exercise, "and then I'll see you in two months and see how things go."

I knew nothing about diabetes and, from the initial research, it sounded really scary. I joined the American Diabetes Association, and read their magazine and other publications. I did read the stories of people who'd been able to cope with T2 solely with diet changes, but they were presented as being unusual, atypical. The low-carb route seemed to be "fringe" or "controversial."

You can imagine the relief I felt when I got the new A1C result a couple of months later!

Hence I do feel lucky, no just that I don't need the drugs, but also because I was given the low-carb advice by my doctor.

Anthony1738 said:

I have nothing to gain and Yes, I agree, It was a sly fox and krept up on me over a period of only 2 years, I had lab test done in 2015 and evrything was good, fast forward to june 2017 everything was a mess, and I worked very hard with diet fasting and excersise and please believe me when I say I cannot and do not eat everything as I did before its just now and again I challenge the disease with High carb stuff and look at the resulting levels, please, I am not so niaive as to think I am cured!, I just asked the question because "in remission" and "reversed" sound to be a politically correct version of "cured".

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Put aside for a moment the test for the sake of being told you are not diabetic, as I do not really see any advantage to that. You are diabetic and you could prove that for example by drinking again (or whatever it is you thought got you here).

I think you are reversed. I like the word reversed in your case because you have gone from BG spikes and highs to a normal response at the moment. Reverse suggests a direction of travel - backwards. And as you can travel backwards you would know you can also travel forwards and if your eating - or fat levels - or bodies response to insulin change you would of gone forwards again to having high BG and spikes.

So be very careful - enjoy the freedom you have to be a bit more relaxed but more often do whatever you did to go backwards and a lot less of things you did to go forwards and hopefully you will always be able to eat in moderation.

Personally I think your reversal is absolutely stunning and I wish that everyone could achieve that and then have their own personal choice of what they want to eat.

If there is such a thing as pre-diabetic then I suppose one could avoid becoming diabetic. The HbA1c numbers for pre-diabetic and diabetic are somewhat arbitrary at 42 and 48 and the measurement is not 100% accurate so maybe some people could appear to be "cured" when they never were fully diabetic in the first place. In my case I know am "controlled" by diet as I still get high BG readings if I ever have high carb food even though my HbA1c is 37. I think of controlled like having a bucket with a hole in the side, as long as you don't fill it up to the hole it's as good as any other bucket.

Grateful said:

Reading your post, I actually feel doubly lucky. When my doctor gave me the diagnosis, he said he did not want to prescribe any drugs to start with. He asked me to go on a low-carb diet and increase the amount of exercise, "and then I'll see you in two months and see how things go."

I knew nothing about diabetes and, from the initial research, it sounded really scary. I joined the American Diabetes Association, and read their magazine and other publications. I did read the stories of people who'd been able to cope with T2 solely with diet changes, but they were presented as being unusual, atypical. The low-carb route seemed to be "fringe" or "controversial."

You can imagine the relief I felt when I got the new A1C result a couple of months later!

Hence I do feel lucky, no just that I don't need the drugs, but also because I was given the low-carb advice by my doctor.

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You're more lucky because you didn't follow the ADA advice probably..although I believe they are slightly less opposed to low carb than the lot over here..

Indy51 said:

The only way the hospital would know for sure is if they give you an OGTT. Pretty sure I'd fail one, even though I've had a non-diabetic A1c for the past 5 years. I don't consider myself in remission, reversed or cured. I prefer to say "well controlled". I know if I went back to the way I was eating before diagnosis, it wouldn't take too long to be back to the same place. Not quite sure why people are so obsessed with this subject.

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I consider myself to be well controlled as I have had non-diabetic numbers for the past 18 months off all medications.

However, I think @Anthony1738's query raises an important issue - there needs to be standard terminology in the literature/guidelines so that those of us who are "well controlled/resolved/reversed/cured/in remission" are coded correctly so that we continue to be invited back for appropriate screenings. The following article addresses this issue:
http://www.practicaldiabetes.com/article/diabetes_in_remission/

I have recently seen a number of these threads that question whether their diagnosis are correct or not and how many who adopt a quick LCHF diet after diagnosis and see quick results and wonder if that meant they were misdiagnosed in the first place. The answer is generally Not but 2 positive tests and having a further positive with the glucose tolerance tests are fairly definitively accepted as the gold standard to insulin resistance and diabetes diagnosis..
Plus, if your sugars rise with small changes in diet to "normal foods" then you are in all probability still afflicted with insulin resistance and your sugar levels will test and reflect that. A glucose monitor was the best investment I have ever made and my morning tests of 4.6 on waking and no longer being on meds are very encouraging but I still probably need to demonstrate a further 9 months of improvements for my insulin resistance to diminish somewhat and hopefully in the not too distant future be able to report something a little more definitive rather than just well controlled in the medium terms. We'll see.

I was diagnosed Insulin Resistant back in 2000 not diabetic but obviously due to fluctuating weight and being Obese (thought I was just overweight but that's denial for you) it took me a long time to finally fit all the pieces of the Diabetes BG control jigsaw together to improve my status (17 years to be frank!). Remember here in the UK your diabetes care team get funded per diabetic patient and most patients are simply on the treadmill to ever increasing worse BG and increased med interventions. More and more within the Diabetes care world are beginning to accept (finally) that the LCHF regime works and gets quick results (I am just one of many examples who are testimony to that. but unfortunately that acceptance and the improvements that it brings, has yet to translate to taking your diabetes marker off your medical records after a short period of so called "remission" and the reason for that is purely because most docs are aware that most Diabetics fall off the LCHF wagon and many other regimes within 2 years of their improved BG controls, so the consequential increase in all the 'opathy's that come with returning High sugars are still there but the patient may not be so the annual foot checks and eye tests and HbA1C checks all fall off the radar if they were to remove you simply because you've had a few short months of improving sugar levels, get it? And, when you are removed so is the funding stream that you and I secure for their medical practices/clinics etc

But as I mentioned us humans are a predictable bunch in how long we are able to stick at regimes long term and yes there will be exceptions and I class myself as one of them (my weight will not balloon nor will my HbA1c's I solemnly pledge.......and will report and update my results But you will not see the same from some after they have had a few short months of improving HbA1c's just look at certain individual signatures who suddenly stop showing their Hba1c's but claim continued cured success or those whose weight has ballooned and up to date results are no longer posted either but they claim they can eat 20 Mars bar and not be affected by rising sugar levels hmmmm yeah sure......... But that my penny's worth hope it shed some light on an alternative view of why getting diagnosed as permanently cured or in remission is not as straight forward as it may originally appear from some commentators on these threads.

Biggles2 said:

I consider myself to be well controlled as I have had non-diabetic numbers for the past 18 months off all medications.

However, I think @Anthony1738's query raises an important issue - there needs to be standard terminology in the literature/guidelines so that those of us who are "well controlled/resolved/reversed/cured/in remission" are coded correctly so that we continue to be invited back for appropriate screenings. The following article addresses this issue:
http://www.practicaldiabetes.com/article/diabetes_in_remission/

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Interesting point @Biggles2 and I agree I am from the school of thought that feels retinal screening should continue for a few years for those diabetics who have managed to control their BG tightly because in some cases that tight control has been found to negatively affect the retinophy status in the short term for those of us that have had this diagnosis for a while even though we may be being really tightly controlled. So continued screening up to 3-5 years with eyes, feet and Hb A1c Checks And remission confirmation after a period of extensive control (i.e c 18 months off all diabetic meds unless there are other serious medical conditions present?

Robert_D said:

Interesting point @Biggles2 and I agree I am from the school of thought that feels retinal screening should continue for a few years for those diabetics who have managed to control their BG tightly because in some cases that tight control has been found to negatively affect the retinophy status in the short term for those of us that have had this diagnosis for a while even though we may be being really tightly controlled. So continues screening 3-4 years eyes feet and Hb A1c after a period of extensive control (i.e c 18 months off all diabetic meds unless there are other serious medical conditions.

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This is hot off the presses @Robert_D and @Anthony1738 :
‘Beating type 2 diabetes into remission’. Published in BMJ September 13, 2017: Here is a snippet from the BMJ’s analysis:


http://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom...-diabetes-but-is-rarely-achieved-or-recorded/

Thanks @Biggles2 interesting article and link. Pity the BMJ doesn't suggest/or promote a time period in its own right of a first stage "remission" position for those with BG levels maintained at X levels over Y time frame with no meds = Remission stage 1 than a lower BG levels maintained at X level again over Y level would be Stage 2 and hey presto we would have a standard that we could aspire too. Which would be really helpful for those of us looking for guidance. Instead, the article's reference to the US study finding remissions in only 0.14% of 120,000 patients followed for seven years, doesn't really add anything more than just confirm the very low adherence rate to any long term effective regime that result in any quality "remission"state being achieved. Opportunity lost me thinks

Anthony1738 said:

Hi and Good morning all,

There is much debate around the subject of Type 2 "Cure" or reversal or remission whatever you wish to call it, many people claim to be in remission, or reversed their condition and equally many people claim it cannot be permantly reversed or cured. Mainly health proffesionals make the claim that Type 2 Diabetes is chronic, progressive and with time it will only get worse and will never be cured. I am of the former, last visit to hospital for blood test they came back normal, I know its early days yet and things may change, but for now I am happy and off the medication.

So heres the question............... Supposing I go to a different hospital and ask for a medical examination and my blood test come back normal, as they did the last time, can the medical staff diagnose me as having type 2 diabetes?

Reversed remission or Cured???????

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I am in normal levels, have been for three years, have been T2 diet controlled throughout since 2006. *BUT* I have not got off scot free and can never be ‘cured’ or in ‘rr ission’, after 9yeqrw a tiny minute spot of diabetic retinopathby can be seen under tbe microscope. It’s not the lack of control obviously but my length of yrs post diagnosis. Born partially sighted with another condition, this is not exactly cheering so I really will not say I’m anything but T2, diet comtrolled.

I'd go for remission, because if you loosen your control, and return to former ways of eating/weight etc the chances are that the T" will come back,

Christine McMillan said:

I am in normal levels, have been for three years, have been T2 diet controlled throughout since 2006. *BUT* I have not got off scot free and can never be ‘cured’ or in ‘rr ission’, after 9yeqrw a tiny minute spot of diabetic retinopathby can be seen under tbe microscope. It’s not the lack of control obviously but my length of yrs post diagnosis. Born partially sighted with another condition, this is not exactly cheering so I really will not say I’m anything but T2, diet comtrolled.

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Nothing wrong with being tightly controlled and containing your diabetes @Christine McMillan better than the alternative so well done you .
The amount of T2's that never get beyond the ever worsening T2 high blood sugar damage that continues to wreak havoc is testimony to your efforts that you have at least stopped that cycle of damage which can only be a very good thing in the medium to long term. You might not be able to undo the damage done but by golly you have done the next best thing by taking control and preventing further deterioration which deserves recognition.

I dont want to be cured.. as long as im a well managed type 2 i feel great. Lost alot of weight and im excersising almost everyday.

If i was to take a pill that would cure me completely i would eat the same **** and feel as ****** as i did before.

Then again if i fall of the waggon in the future.. well then the magic pill would be interesting.

I posted elsewhere about my cousin and her hubby. He was very overweight, got his weight down and bangs on at me with missionary zeal about walking (dude... you are retired and you don't have to work all day) and both he and my cous "reversed their pre-diabetic state... but have somehow gotten complacent and now certainly she has been told by the GP her A1C is now back up to around 50. They are big eaters, though and she has stopped exercising which could be an issue there.

Her husband spends a lot of time reading stuff in the inter web and keeps lecturing me on reversing my Type 2. I suspect at best I will put it into remission but will have to manage this condition for the rest of my life, but I have also made a choice to commit to a second career that makes it awfully hard to control for large portions of the year.

I find I have to bite my tongue... a lot, when they tell me what I can and can't eat, and then complain that they are gaining weight, A1C going up yada yada. Stone and glass houses spring to mind!

Anthony1738 said:

Yes, I read that article, and I agree that people should continue to have eye tests etc, but I mean everyone not just diabetics! Ive been having regular eye screening and blood screening for years, had I not, I would be blissfully unaware that I had Type 2 diabetes.

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@Anthony1738 The results in your signature just caught my eye...WOW! You achieved so much in 3 months. Congrats!!!

This idea that you have it for life seems to be ingrained.
That idea comes from the current state of medicine and science.
Both of which don't actually know that much about it.
It's only the last few years that serious research has been undertaken because of the explosion in numbers being diagnosed now.
Different researchers keep coming to different conclusions.
Our sciencee and understanding is forever changing as it should.
This is the reason I never call myself a diabetic.
I am a person who has T2 diabetes.
It's a simple statement but is a very different kind of thinking.
I haven't turned into something.
If you get cancer you do not go around telling people you are a cancer.
I think it's an important point and a very positive position to take.
I am not a diabetic.
I have T2 diabetes.
I've got mine under such control I say I have switched it off.
It might switch back on if I'm not careful .... if I don't keep a close eye on things but off is it's current setting.
All my knowledge and information regarding diabetes doesn't amount to much but I got it all from here from you people.
I have never weighd anything or counted anything.
Only numbers I deal with are eating to my meter which I've more or less abandoned.
I still have my meter and strips and occasionally if I'm feeling out of sorts I'll have a day where I check but it remains off so the meter and strips go back in the cupboard for weeks .... maybe months I don't count.
Can anyone provide definitive proof that you have T2 for life?

I have been T2 for about 6 years and for 3 of these my hba1c has been in the 30s. Like @JTL I tend not to test a lot - usually FBS 2-3 times a week or when I have something different and, whilst I still tend to eat low carbish, I enjoy going out for meals and do not get too concerned if I have more carbs than usual such as the odd square or 2 of chocolate, slice of cake etc. Sometimes we can be too negative in that we will always congratulate someone who has been cured of cancer but when someone posts on the forum and announces that they gave been told they have been 'cured', 'are in remission' or 'reversed their condition' the immediate response to their post is often that there is no such thing which de-moralises them but, more importantly, must make a lot of people reading them think 'what's the point in trying' instead 'it is possible and I'm going to succeed as well'.