Reversing T2 With Diet - Who Has Done It And Who Wants To Give It A Go?

[Living-by-the-beach]

@bulkbiker I've been getting "Good Control" or usually about 100-125mg /dl or 5.7- 6.9 mmol/L FBGs. With the fasting I was sub 100mg/dl, which is where one wants to be all the time. I am aggressive about exercising probably more so than Geoff Whitington, yet we're all different. Its just a tough disease to manage or put into remission.

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

I thought it was unlikely, but I thought it best to check you weren't taking any meds after you said you felt a bit Hypo.
Apologies, I don't understand your second comment - do you mean that you are still getting blood spikes?

@Bebo321 The hypo would come about because I hadn't had any food at all (as in fasting). 3.7 mmol/L is a low FBG. I wasn't actually hypo but my body has been 5.8-6.9 mmol/L for last two years.. When I checked later in the day I was at 83mg/dl 4.65mmol/L. I wasn't hypoing more feeling hungry for some carbs. This disease is just tough all the way around.. I thought that getting to FBG 3.7mmol/L was low enough to have cleared my liver and pancreas of the stuff that is giving me my insulin resistance having read Richard Doughty's account in the Guardian newspaper that I linked to earlier..

 

[chalup]

I just had a 3 day unplanned fast due to viral gastroenteritis. Sugars at 9 with no food. Ended up in hospital for 2 litres of IV fluids that made me feel miles better as I was very dehydrated. Blood sugar dropped from 9 to 5.4 with fluids. There is so much going on with D it is not just food and exercise. It is not that simple.

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

I just had a 3 day unplanned fast due to viral gastroenteritis. Sugars at 9 with no food. Ended up in hospital for 2 litres of IV fluids that made me feel miles better as I was very dehydrated. Blood sugar dropped from 9 to 5.4 with fluids. There is so much going on with D it is not just food and exercise. It is not that simple.

@chalup have a look at www.tinyurl.com/Dr-JasonFung. I'll defer to Dr Fung's knowledge of fasting over me trying to give a lecture on human biology..

 

[Bebo321]

I just had a 3 day unplanned fast due to viral gastroenteritis. Sugars at 9 with no food. Ended up in hospital for 2 litres of IV fluids that made me feel miles better as I was very dehydrated. Blood sugar dropped from 9 to 5.4 with fluids. There is so much going on with D it is not just food and exercise. It is not that simple.

Hope you're beginning to feel better. Experiencing higher bloods initially is perhaps explained by the body's natural response to infection. After that, BGs would begin to reflect diet again.

 

[Bebo321]

@Bebo321 The hypo would come about because I hadn't had any food at all (as in fasting). 3.7 mmol/L is a low FBG. I wasn't actually hypo but my body has been 5.8-6.9 mmol/L for last two years.. When I checked later in the day I was at 83mg/dl 4.65mmol/L. I wasn't hypoing more feeling hungry for some carbs. This disease is just tough all the way around.. I thought that getting to FBG 3.7mmol/L was low enough to have cleared my liver and pancreas of the stuff that is giving me my insulin resistance having read Richard Doughty's account in the Guardian newspaper that I linked to earlier..

Okay - I understand your thinking.
I am not sure a great deal of research has been done about our full range of BGs. I seem to recall that in a study that Team blood glucose (www.teambloodglucose) did together with London Imperial College testing BGs of cyclists T1, T2 and 'normal' over a multi day endurance bike ride, there was some surprise over how low blood glucose levels could fall over the event - without any apparent 'side effects'. Not sure 3.7mmol/L will be set in stone, or be the magic number for everyone.

Just out of interest, have you had any tests to make sure your diabetes is simply down to insulin resistance? (Sorry - I don't know your back story). Looking back through the thread I've realised that your bmi is actually very good.

 

[Steve50]

@chalup have a look at www.tinyurl.com/Dr-JasonFung. I'll defer to Dr Fung's knowledge of fasting over me trying to give a lecture on human biology..

Hi LBTB
Following this thread with interest.

 

[chalup]

Hope you're beginning to feel better. Experiencing higher bloods initially is perhaps explained by the body's natural response to infection. After that, BGs would begin to reflect diet again.

Feeling better with fluids onboard now I am ravenously hungry but afraid to eat more than a bit of yogurt. Nurse told me to follow the brat diet at first after not eating for 3 days. Bananas, rice, applesauce, toast. When I told her I do not eat any of those things because I am diabetic she just gave me a look of angry disgust and said something about portion size. Things are no different in Canada than in the UK.

 

[Brunneria]

Feeling better with fluids onboard now I am ravenously hungry but afraid to eat more than a bit of yogurt. Nurse told me to follow the brat diet at first after not eating for 3 days. Bananas, rice, applesauce, toast. When I told her I do not eat any of those things because I am diabetic she just gave me a look of angry disgust and said something about portion size. Things are no different in Canada than in the UK.

Chicken soup.
There is nothing better (IMHO) when recovering from GI issues. You can make it as mild and bland, or as interesting and filling as you can cope with at the time. And of course, as low or high carb as appropriate.

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

Okay - I understand your thinking.
I am not sure a great deal of research has been done about our full range of BGs. I seem to recall that in a study that Team blood glucose (www.teambloodglucose) did together with London Imperial College testing BGs of cyclists T1, T2 and 'normal' over a multi day endurance bike ride, there was some surprise over how low blood glucose levels could fall over the event - without any apparent 'side effects'. Not sure 3.7mmol/L will be set in stone, or be the magic number for everyone.

Just out of interest, have you had any tests to make sure your diabetes is simply down to insulin resistance? (Sorry - I don't know your back story). Looking back through the thread I've realized that your bmi is actually very good.

@Bebo321

As of this morning September12th my BMI is bang on 24.1. (my back story is that originally my FBG on Friday was 95mg/dl 5.25mmol/L). Saturday's FBG was 67mg/dl (3.75 mmol/L) by the 10th September 2.30 pm I was feeling quite jittery with test at that time with 83mg/dl (4.65mmol/L). So I caved in to my lack of eating for 68 hours with food. I did cycle 16 miles after eating on Saturday afternoon too.

Sunday I woke and tested and came in with a FBG of 114mg/dl (6.3 mmol/L disappointed naturally) so back to the Dr Jason Fung game plan. Fasted all day yesterday (Sunday) and this morning (12th of September) I came in with a FBG 88 mg/dl (4.9mmol/L) and the pain on my feet this morning has all but disappeared. Thus if one is looking at this from a chart prospective I've just created a lower high.. So my FBGs are trending lower (albeit that I am not eating during this fasting process). Yet they are trending lower with similar amounts of time to allow my body to re-sensitize itself to lower levels of insulin. We must recall that initially T2DM is a disease of insulin resistance. If one lowers the background level of insulin over time then the body has a chance to re-acquire the sensitivity that, which was lost in the past.

What is really telling though about Professor Taylor's work is that, even when I was 14 lbs lighter (in June 2015) I never experienced these lower level of FBGs. So while 7 of the original 11 patients in the Professor Taylor 2011 study were fortunate enough to reverse (sic put into some form of remission) their T2DM, 4 were left behind. Taylor has always maintained that it was overall weight loss that was critical. I think its the severity of plain out fasting that may be allowing my body to sort itself out and heal itself. That is why the 800 Kcal of Taylor may be "Too large a diet". This could explain why Dr Fung has a 10 month waiting list of patients waiting to see him, because of his successful methodology https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/join/.

Have said all the above, I maybe talking absolute and complete nonsense I really do mean, this could be utter nonsense. I maybe missing something completely obvious. I personally know of folks that have lost a decent amount of weight, that should have put their T2DM into remission but they haven't seen remission yet. I just figured that thinking out loud may promote some helpful discussion.. I know that's where I think I fell into the void of originally losing 66lbs of weight but not regaining my health. I am currently 54lbs lighter from my worst level of 252lbs, at 198lbs. I hope this helps everyone.. I hope that I am on my way out of this nightmare.

FWIW I am not a patient of Dr Fung or Professor Taylor but I've corresponded with both of them.

 

[Brunneria]

@Bebo321

I personally know of folks that have lost a decent amount of weight, that should have put their T2DM into remission but they haven't seen remission yet. I just figured that thinking out loud may promote some helpful discussion.

It must be a huge disappointment to them, and I fully sympathise.

Prof. Taylor has suggested the personal fat threshold theory (which I like), but if it is true, then anyone who doesn't have a fatty liver before they start the ND will not (according to the theory) benefit from the diet. Although, of course, losing excess weight is always beneficial, it just may not benefit the T2.

For those of us who had glucose tolerance issues before weight gain, or who don't have a fatty liver, then I think the ND has very limited value.

For those whose T2 IS the result of a fatty liver, then weight loss may be the Holy Grail - which is delightful.
But I still question whether rapid weight loss is a necessary part of the process. Slower LCHF diets report reversal too.

Personally, I have had glucose tolerance issues since childhood, and through every weight that I have experienced as a child, teen and adult. If my 4 year old un-fatty liver couldn't cope, and if my blood scores show no sign of a fatty liver, then I have no expectation of achieving reversal through diet or weight loss.

 

[bulkbiker]

@Bebo321
What is really telling though about Professor Taylor's work is that, even when I was 14 lbs lighter (in June 2015) I never experienced these lower level of FBGs. So while 7 of the original 11 patients in the Professor Taylor 2011 study were fortunate enough to reverse (sic put into some form of remission) their T2DM, 4 were left behind. Taylor has always maintained that it was overall weight loss that was critical. I think its the severity of plain out fasting that may be allowing my body to sort itself out and heal itself. That is why the 800 Kcal of Taylor may be "Too large a diet". This could explain why Dr Fung has a 10 month waiting list of patients waiting to see him, because of his successful methodology https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/join/.

Have said all the above, I maybe talking absolute and complete nonsense I really do mean this could be utter nonsense. I maybe missing something completely obvious. I personally know of folks that have lost a decent amount of weight, that should have put their T2DM into remission but they haven't seen remission yet. I just figured that thinking out loud may promote some helpful discussion.. I know that's where I think I fell into the void of originally losing 66lbs of weight but not regaining my health. I am currently 54lbs lighter from my worst level of 252lbs, at 198lbs. I hope this helps everyone.. I hope that I am on my way out of this nightmare.

FWIW I am not a patient of Dr Fung or Professor Taylor but I've corresponded with both of them.

I have often wondered if rather than following the calorie restricted diet the participants fasted for 8 weeks what the results would be. I know I keep going on about fasting but it makes so much sense to my fairly non scientific brain and Dr Fung explains it so well. Maybe I should try.. although I think I would definitely need my Bullet Proof Coffee if I did.

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

I have often wondered if rather than following the calorie restricted diet the participants fasted for 8 weeks what the results would be. I know I keep going on about fasting but it makes so much sense to my fairly non scientific brain and Dr Fung explains it so well. Maybe I should try.. although I think I would definitely need my Bullet Proof Coffee if I did.

@bulkbiker

I'm fasting right now as I type this response. In Matthew's gospel in the Bible in Chapter 4 Jesus fasted for 40 days. Thus I think 56 (8 weeks x 7) days of fasting may just a touch too much. Yet I do know that many folks are executing intermittent fasting (which is a core trait, for Dr Jason Fung's medical T2 patients).

I love my full fat cream in my coffee every morning. I'll keep you all posted as to how I am doing and how I am feeling

 

[chalup]

Chicken soup.
There is nothing better (IMHO) when recovering from GI issues. You can make it as mild and bland, or as interesting and filling as you can cope with at the time. And of course, as low or high carb as appropriate.

Actually I had made some chicken noodle soup and just strained out the noodles. No idea how much starch ended up in the broth but it felt wonderful to have something warm in my stomach. This morning my fasting was lower than my bedtime number for the first time. 5.9 so maybe it was the enforced fasting draining my liver. I don't know.

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

Actually I had made some chicken noodle soup and just strained out the noodles. No idea how much starch ended up in the broth but it felt wonderful to have something warm in my stomach. This morning my fasting was lower than my bedtime number for the first time. 5.9 so maybe it was the enforced fasting draining my liver. I don't know.

@chalup have a closer read of Fung www.tinyurl.com/Dr-JasonFung his thinking on fasting and intermittent fasting is I sense groundbreaking.. His book "The Obesity Code" I'm told is good but a more "drier read" than his website..

 

[_lyn_lyn_1963]

I have gone sugar free or as near as dam it and have lost 2 stone over and I wasn't over weight to begin with, was pre diabetic now I'm not, but I eat loads throughout the day, and still lost weight. I feel amazing off the sugary foods download sugar smart app and away we go.

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

Another day of fasting yesterday and I threw in a bbq'd chicken breast at dinner time. Woke with a 91mg/dl or a 5.05 mmol/L. Yesterday evening was the first time in 2 and 1/2 years that I'd felt that good. No nagging pain in my feet. While it goes without saying that I clearly can't maintain fasting forever I am feeling better and I sense I am moving on with improving my health.. The longer I can maintain my fasting the better for increasing my insulin sensitivity. After that I start going back to lifting weights and putting on some muscle mass. Weight was down a couple of lbs overnight..

 

[Bebo321]

In theory a LCHF diet (restricted calories) should gradually reduce the fat content of the liver and in and around other organs. It would be a much slower process however, and perhaps never quite as effective as a fast. Maybe there is some significance to the negative energy balance within the liver which is more or less constant when fasting that not only shifts the fat most effectively, but perhaps enables some sort of insulin resistance 're-set'.
As I understand it, the overall weight of a patient isn't the deciding factor, it's the amount of abdominal fat they have. This would obviously explain why although T2D is often seen in people who are overweight, it can also be diagnosed in much slimmer individuals who carry that 'hidden' visceral and subcutaneous adipose fat.
To be honest, I tend to only think of T2 as a condition brought about through fat induced insulin resistance. It must be frustrating for those classified as T2 who don't fit this model, because the implications can be very different.
@Living-by-the-beach, your comment about your feet and the reduction in pain is amazing! I am truly keeping everything crossed that this is as a result of your moderated and lowered BGs - and long may it continue! I know that anecdotally people with T1D who have followed a LCHF diet and have been able to manage their BGs into a more normal range have apparently reduced (dare I say reversed?) symptoms of neuropathy.
It's inspiring to hear, and anyone who is in a position to try a fast (and it's appropriate), perhaps it is worth a go? Doesn't sound like there's anything to lose (except some insulin resistance).
Thanks for your post @Living-by-the-beach and please keep giving us your progress updates!

 

[Bebo321]

I have gone sugar free or as near as dam it and have lost 2 stone over and I wasn't over weight to begin with, was pre diabetic now I'm not, but I eat loads throughout the day, and still lost weight. I feel amazing off the sugary foods download sugar smart app and away we go.

That's great news!
Keep in mind that the body converts all carbohydrate to sugar though, so it's not just about the sweet stuff.

 

[_lyn_lyn_1963]

That's great news!
Keep in mind that the body converts all carbohydrate to sugar though, so it's not just about the sweet stuff.

yes I agree but I never have been a big carb eater, and the sweet stuff is in so much food and we don't know it, it's a good starting point, hate to hear all these folks fasting and what not, make your body work for the sugar in food not in drinks and sugar ay foods, take your point.