Reversing Type 2 diabetes

bulkbiker · Jun 5, 2018

NewTD2 said:
Why is there so much negativity about medical research in this forum?

And I’m not saying that T1s and T2s should and must take these supplements. We are all different and it’s an individual”s choice.

Because a lot of published medical research is poorly constructed and usually the results have been determined before the "trial" has started and the "research" is designed to demonstrate the point. Quite a few of us have learnt over time to read these things with a more critical eye.
No one said you were telling anyone to take these ever...
The main problem with the study you linked to were the claims about Type 1 and regenerating beta cells which I think as most Type 1's here would attest..is, so far as we know, impossible.
Finally the dissemination of incorrect information doesn't really help anyone and at its core that's what the forum is all about.

Oldvatr · Jun 5, 2018

Jenny15 said:
Initially I disregarded this research report because I knew there have been claims these plants can regenerate beta cells but I've never seen credible, robust research demonstrating that.

I've now read the report's abstract, methodology and conclusion.

I recommend if people want to know the report's findings, read the conclusion only. Normally you can do that by reading the abstract, but not in this case. I suspect the university in Iran and the journal in Brazil have different standards than what I am used to.

The report's conclusion does not say that taking these supplements has been shown to regenerate pancreatic beta cells.

IMO, the report is "medical research" because it was written by medical researchers but it is a prospective literature review only. In medical practice in the UK and NZ, medical doctors are trained to assess the veracity of treatment claims. Laypeople like us can learn that too.

One thing to remember is that university students have to produce and publish study papers as part of their course requirements, i.e. a thesis or dissertation. submitted for a Masters Degree or other qualification. Just because a paper exists, does not make it a bona fide source of credible information that is suitable for the general public to use. Often these reports are full of impressive technical language that takes paragraphs to say something simples. Often these reports are a review of other peoples papers or appear like a meta study comparing and critiquing the status of research at that time. One thing that these student papers have in common is that they do not generally include new research or have detailed trial methodology to explain what was used to justify their statements. Again ,many only publish an abstract as a proposal for possible further research, so draw conclusions without having a need for substance.

Experienced users will have developed a sixth sense about these reports, bur newcomers will not have developed the discriminatory ability to take such publications with a pinch of salt.

i went through this mill myself, and my son is currently at the point of pusblishing his own papers, It is a common requirement for obtaining advanced qualifications. Generally if a report is difficult to read because of loads of complicated verbiage, then it is generally because the author is trying too hard to impress their certification board.

Jenny15 · Jun 5, 2018

Oldvatr said:
One thing to remember is that university students have to produce and publish study papers as part of their course requirements, i.e. a thesis or dissertation. submitted for a Masters Degree or other qualification. Just because a paper exists, does not make it a bona fide source of credible information that is suitable for the general public to use. Often these reports are full of impressive technical language that takes paragraphs to say something simples. Often these reports are a review of other peoples papers or appear like a meta study comparing and critiquing the status of research at that time. One thing that these student papers have in common is that they do not generally include new research or have detailed trial methodology to explain what was used to justify their statements. Again ,many only publish an abstract as a proposal for possible further research, so draw conclusions without having a need for substance.

Experienced users will have developed a sixth sense about these reports, bur newcomers will not have developed the discriminatory ability to take such publications with a pinch of salt.

i went through this mill myself, and my son is currently at the point of pusblishing his own papers, It is a common requirement for obtaining advanced qualifications. Generally if a report is difficult to read because of loads of complicated verbiage, then it is generally because the author is trying too hard to impress their certification board.

I totally agree. Within the first few sentences of reading this report I thought to myself "are these guys undergrads?" Then I saw it was written in Iran, which is ruled by a totalitarian regime, further weakening any credibility the content of the report might have been able to earn. Corruption is rife in such countries. The methodology section was ridiculous too.

Another thing I assess is the journal itself. I haven't checked this one, but some of these "journals" are not real academic journals. There is usually no or weak peer review. Some of them are just private moneymaking enterprises with no scholarly credentials whatsoever.

Of all the academic disciplines, IMO, sociology is the worst for this sort of thing. At least in the physical sciences there is an ability to determine whether the research was even logical and possible. LOL

bulkbiker · Jun 5, 2018

NewTD2 said:
There is no cure for T1D because if you read your medical books carefully, T1 is an autoimmune disease

I’ve had enough of this to be honest.

Why is there so much negativity about medical research in this forum?

And I’m not saying that T1s and T2s should and must take these supplements. We are all different and it’s an individual”s choice.

If you don’t want, ignore it for goodness sake!

You might find this enlightening..
https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2014/01/31/richard-smith-medical-research-still-a-scandal/

Oldvatr · Jun 5, 2018

bulkbiker said:
You might find this enlightening..
https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2014/01/31/richard-smith-medical-research-still-a-scandal/

I see Richard Feinemann is one of the commentators.

Edit to add: One thing that was not mentioned is that much of the research is funded and performed by a company who retain commercial-in-confidence rights. E.G a drug company does research to prove their new drug is safe to use. Their report is for NICE, who publish and archive the abstract, BUT the data and methodology used to make the conclusions is proprietary to the drug company, who own it, and who will not release it for independant scrutiny and validation, So no one can question the results unless they fund and carry out a parallel blue skies trial, at their own cost - and then why should they? It should be the Governments providing funding to cross check such data, but they don't, and they can't.

Oldvatr · Jun 5, 2018

NewTD2 said:
There is no cure for T1D because if you read your medical books carefully, T1 is an autoimmune disease

So? In my lifetime many diseases have been virtually eliminated. So one day T1D may yet be conquered too. There is nothing inherent to the condition that prevents that possibility, just lack of resource and understanding of the underlying cause of the condition. Just because it is in a medical textbook does not mean it is fact accompli. It just means that our HCP's may be using incorrect models for treatment because that is what they were taught. I used to believe that the moon was made of cream cheese, because that is what I was taught, but I have revised my opinion of that since. The man in the moon ate it all up long time ago - eh?

rab5 · Jun 5, 2018

Oldvatr said:
So? In my lifetime many diseases have been virtually eliminated. So one day T1D may yet be conquered too. There is nothing inherent to the condition that prevents that possibility, just lack of resource and understanding of the underlying cause of the condition. Just because it is in a medical textbook does not mean it is fact accompli. It just means that our HCP's may be using incorrect models for treatment because that is what they were taught. I used to believe that the moon was made of cream cheese, because that is what I was taught, but I have revised my opinion of that since. The man in the moon ate it all up long time ago - eh?

Its not made of cheese?

Bluetit1802 · Jun 5, 2018

rab5 said:
Its not made of cheese?

But there is a Santa Claus. He visits every year, and I've seen him.

Mbaker · Jun 5, 2018

On topic, my view is that Type 2 can be "reversed" with the technical term of "Diabetes Mellitus In Remission" (in the UK this is the NHS official status that can be attributed to a medical record (there is also a code for resolved (cured?)). Reversed is used in common parlance for example in newspapers, so there is a good argument to keep this as a mainstream term.

The food environment as it currently stands is circa 60% grains, sugar, flour and starches - this for me is not "normal". In an earlier post, someone said:
"Have plate of Krispy Kreme doughnuts, a big bowl of fried rice and a pizza washed down with a coke for good measure then tell me how well the reversal is going"
Notice 100% of these match the circa 60% I mention. Maybe I am just lucky mentally regarding these foods I can honestly say yuk, yuk, yuk. Krispy Kreme doughnuts far too sweet and the perfect health bomb of bad fats and sugar - a recipe for generating visceral fat, rice has the highest natural amount of arsenic available in food with minimal fibre and high GI / GL. Coke requires no introduction. Now Pizza for me is delicious, but again the technical side of my brain knows this again the perfect fat bomb.to these types of options which are literally fueling many. I would never swap any of these for berries, nuts, fish, meat, coconuts and, vegetables, etc. My current favourite is 500 grams to 1 kilogram of spare ribs for example, if I am out I just scrap off all of the sweet sticky stuff, in my view the fake food doesn't compare.

Type 2's (and Type 1's who choose to) can:

- LCHF
- KETO
- INTERMITTENT FAST
- FULL / MULTIDAY FAST (perhaps not so for Type 1's)
- EXERCISE
- SLEEP MORE / MEDITATE

I use all of these to keep my remission. If I were to start getting increased blood glucose markers there is the flexibility to adjust any of these markers, for example in my n=1 I know that a 2.5 day fast gets me bgs in the 2's with exercise - I can keep this knowledge in my locker to know that perhaps if I decline I could do full day fasting, reduce the nuts, rather than half a plate of low GI vegetables, maybe have a third. These options are available to many. My father-in 2.5 months ago had a HbA1c of 39, by adjusting a couple of parameters : seed biscuits in place of rich tea, stevia in place of regular sugar, no more sweets and incidental snacking. HbA1c today 36 (A1cNow+, by comparison on the same device mine was 31 (counting down to my lab based on 28th).

rab5 · Jun 5, 2018

Mbaker said:
On topic, my view is that Type 2 can be "reversed" with the technical term of "Diabetes Mellitus In Remission" (in the UK this is the NHS official status that can be attributed to a medical record (there is also a code for resolved (cured?)). Reversed is used in common parlance for example in newspapers, so there is a good argument to keep this as a mainstream term.

The food environment as it currently stands is circa 60% grains, sugar, flour and starches - this for me is not "normal". In an earlier post, someone said:
"Have plate of Krispy Kreme doughnuts, a big bowl of fried rice and a pizza washed down with a coke for good measure then tell me how well the reversal is going"
Notice 100% of these match the circa 60% I mention. Maybe I am just lucky mentally regarding these foods I can honestly say yuk, yuk, yuk. Krispy Kreme doughnuts far too sweet and the perfect health bomb of bad fats and sugar - a recipe for generating visceral fat, rice has the highest natural amount of arsenic available in food with minimal fibre and high GI / GL. Coke requires no introduction. Now Pizza for me is delicious, but again the technical side of my brain knows this again the perfect fat bomb.to these types of options which are literally fueling many. I would never swap any of these for berries, nuts, fish, meat, coconuts and, vegetables, etc. My current favourite is 500 grams to 1 kilogram of spare ribs for example, if I am out I just scrap off all of the sweet sticky stuff, in my view the fake food doesn't compare.

Type 2's (and Type 1's who choose to) can:

- LCHF
- KETO
- INTERMITTENT FAST
- FULL / MULTIDAY FAST (perhaps not so for Type 1's)
- EXERCISE
- SLEEP MORE / MEDITATE

I use all of these to keep my remission. If I were to start getting increased blood glucose markers there is the flexibility to adjust any of these markers, for example in my n=1 I know that a 2.5 day fast gets me bgs in the 2's with exercise - I can keep this knowledge in my locker to know that perhaps if I decline I could do full day fasting, reduce the nuts, rather than half a plate of low GI vegetables, maybe have a third. These options are available to many. My father-in 2.5 months ago had a HbA1c of 39, by adjusting a couple of parameters : seed biscuits in place of rich tea, stevia in place of regular sugar, no more sweets and incidental snacking. HbA1c today 36 (A1cNow+, by comparison on the same device mine was 31 (counting down to my lab based on 28th).

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Reversing Type 2 diabetes

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