Reversing Type 2 diabetes

[Oldvatr]

It certainly is...but for too long...the mainstream narrative has been that T2D is progressive and irreversible except thru bariatric surgery. The term reversing diabetes is likely to be intentionally provocative to challenge current misinformation.

For example...

Virta Health
https://www.virtahealth.com/reversediabetes

Diet Doctor
https://www.dietdoctor.com/diabetes

Dr Jason Fung
https://idmprogram.com/reverse-type-2-diabetes-the-quick-start-guide/

They are all medical professionals who are familiar with the term....remission.

I am also very aware that all three organisations shown in these links have a common agenda, so may posssibly be slightly biassed too. Jason Fung is a founder member of IDM I believe. and certainly is involved very closely in that work.

Edit to add: Virta Health was founded by Phinney and Voleck, both names closely associated with the LCHF movement I believe. So I sense that they also speak the same language, and wish to convey the same message. They also all earn a crust by promoting this message.

 

[Jenny15]

They may be expert medical practitioners but that does not guarantee any more expertise in the etymology of the English language. I completely agree with you that the attitude of mainstream agencies as you highlight is pervasive and puts them in a position of power. However, the usage of terms that are ambiguous does not help the cause of the challengers and re-educators.

I have no proof but I suspect the guidelines that have been proffered by these agencies in cahoots with medical associations are the result of underfunding and a lack of education. Call it "taking the easy way out" for a short term fix if you wish.

Can I just check which agencies and guidelines you are talking about?

 

[AloeSvea]

I am going to step out of a meeker line and say I think it is patently ridiculous to say someone has type two diabetes when they have brought their blood glucose measurement down to non-diabetic levels without medication for at least two years and continue to keep it down to healthy, very healthy , or even extremely healthy levels. (I don't count some little strays into borderline or just over the border prediabetic levels and out again.) (I am not talking about myself. Alas, I am one of the 15% of newly identified type two diabetics with very stubborn insulin resistant probably livers, probably from very longterm IR. Alas for me.)

Of course people who have had type two should be able to access public funded check ups to make sure that is where they are at and continue to be at. (I am thinking of retinopathy checks, continual regular blood lipid and blood glucose testing, and in a perfect world - blood glucose test strips and metre funding!)

And yes I see it like talking about folks who have had cancer. Cancer can go into remission, and then after a period of time, one is cancer free. Imagine a world where all people who have had cancer, and have been cancer free for some time continue to be called 'cancer patients' - or 'canceritics'. Yes, patently ridiculous. One may very well still be the type of body/person who will get cancer again! This happens. It is not the same cancer, if you like, but a new bout. It can be the same for people who have had type two insulin resistant diabetes once. It can happen again, if their bodies are exposed to the same stressors.

It's the same for people who are vulnerable to type two diabetes, which is a LOT of people! lol. After all.

I hope to see a world where people who reverse/remiss (!!) are allowed to be what they actually are, 'restricted' (or in other words 'really healthy') way of eating or nae, and that is type two diabetes free.

 

[Crocodile]

Can I just check which agencies and guidelines you are talking about?

Yes Jenny, you sure can. As an example here is a link to the diabetes agency in my domicile ( Australia ).
https://www.ndss.com.au/what-should-i-eat
The recommendations are, as we already know, in stark contrast to what I and others on this board have discovered. They actually promote the consumption of carbohydrate laden meals. After diagnosis I tried these guidelines with resulting high glucose levels and developing neuropathy. It wasn't until I stumbled upon this site and brought a bit of sensibility that is now so obvious back into my diet have things changed for the better.

The medical side can be found here.
https://static.diabetesaustralia.co...alia/5ed214a6-4cff-490f-a283-bc8279fe3b2f.pdf
It is a long document but they accept a pre-prandial of up to 8.0 mmol/L and a post of up to 10.0 as being within the guidelines.

Most countries are similar. My suspicion is that these guidelines are so loose simply because it is either too hard or too costly to adequately equip the diabetic population with good management. The members of this board are just a drop in a bucket population wise of the entire diabetic sufferers. The majority face worsening symptoms over time due to lack of understanding and lack of time for the medical practitioners to help them. The result is just a pervading acceptance that deterioration is inevitable.

 

[Oldvatr]

Yes Jenny, you sure can. As an example here is a link to the diabetes agency in my domicile ( Australia ).
https://www.ndss.com.au/what-should-i-eat
The recommendations are, as we already know, in stark contrast to what I and others on this board have discovered. They actually promote the consumption of carbohydrate laden meals. After diagnosis I tried these guidelines with resulting high glucose levels and developing neuropathy. It wasn't until I stumbled upon this site and brought a bit of sensibility that is now so obvious back into my diet have things changed for the better.

The medical side can be found here.
https://static.diabetesaustralia.co...alia/5ed214a6-4cff-490f-a283-bc8279fe3b2f.pdf
It is a long document but they accept a pre-prandial of up to 8.0 mmol/L and a post of up to 10.0 as being within the guidelines.

Most countries are similar. My suspicion is that these guidelines are so loose simply because it is either too hard or too costly to adequately equip the diabetic population with good management. The members of this board are just a drop in a bucket population wise of the entire diabetic sufferers. The majority face worsening symptoms over time due to lack of understanding and lack of time for the medical practitioners to help them. The result is just a pervading acceptance that deterioration is inevitable.

Well said. We forum users are in a kind of protective bubble and I often have to remind myself of what is actually going on in the big wide world out there. I am priviledged to have discovered sanity on this board and to be in a position to make choices that help me deal with my condition. Personally I find thread titles that scream Reverse your diabetes to be very misleading and emotive, so I prefer to use the term Remission or Controlled to bring it in line with other misfortunes such as Cancer, MS, ME, Parkinsons etc so as to provide clarity for Newbies and Newly DX'ed, I find the other emotive terms can give false hope which currently is a pipedream that science may well develop into something that is fully and reliably permanent. There is definitely a Holy Grail aspect to the situation, and I do not think we have discovered it yet. There is no magic potion or spell that makes it go away however much you pay the kind man in the promo video. But we have some very good tools here that I am happy to promote and support, but I hate Guru worshippers. I am a scientist.

 

[bulkbiker]

Edit to add: Virta Health was founded by Phinney and Voleck,

Slight correction ...
I think you should also mention Sami Inkinen who is the "money" behind Virta health and is listed as one of the founders. Along with Phinney and Volek.
Dr Fung effectively is IDM as I believe he founded it.

 

[Oldvatr]

Slight correction ...
I think you should also mention Sami Inkinen who is the "money" behind Virta health and is listed as one of the founders. Along with Phinney and Volek.
Dr Fung effectively is IDM as I believe he founded it.

Sami who? Never heard of them. Are they a Doctor? Would they be expected to know by their profession the difference between Reversed and Remission? That was the post I was responding to. Virta Health definitely use Reveral as a keystone mantra in their online presentations. Their healthplan that they invite you to sign up to on Page one of their presentation comes at the knockdown price of $500 upfront signing on fee, and then $199 per year thereafter. Sorry, I will not be subscribing to their wealth. Phinney and Volek have at least earned their accolade as leaders in the LC field, but this venture seems to be a rip off and a honey trap for Newbies.

 

[bulkbiker]

Their healthplan that they invite you to sign up to on Page one of their presentation comes at the knockdown price of $500 upfront signing on fee, and then $199 per year thereafter. Sorry, I will not be subscribing to their wealth. Phinney and Volek have at least earned their accolade as leaders in the LC field, but this venture seems to be a rip off and a honey trap for Newbies.

Their healthplan is US based and I imagine is relatively cheap for the health insurers it is designed for. It is not designed for the UK market.
A little too vehement.. I was just correcting that there were 3 founders of Virta not only the two you mentioned. I may have taken what you wrote without appreciating the full context but I really don't think it deserved quite that rant.

 

[Oldvatr]

Their healthplan is US based and I imagine is relatively cheap for the health insurers it is designed for. It is not designed for the UK market.
A little too vehement.. I was just correcting that there were 3 founders of Virta not only the two you mentioned. I may have taken what you wrote without appreciating the full context but I really don't think it deserved quite that rant.

I did what a Newbie might do when reading this thread. I saw the name Virta Health being mentioned, and googled it. So I was immediately introduced to their sales pitch. My wife had a similar experience, and signed up to a WFPB website selling their info at vastly inflated prices, and she ended up buying all their books and videos. My daughter has recently received the same info from a WFPB sales pitch where they claim to reverse T2D in weeks, and she is wanting me to subscribe to it. I am sorry, but it is important to recognise that not everybody reading posts here has the nouse or experience to validate the info put in front of them, which is why I come on so strongly.

Sorry if I ruffled your feathers BB, but having spent most of my life designing avionic control systems, I come from a safety conscious environment where one has to question everything, and probe and test to discover where the weaknesses might lie. So next time you fly or travel by train, hope that I did my job properly. NEVER ASSUME, since when you do you make an ASS out of ME.

 

[bulkbiker]

@Oldvatr
I don't see much of a sales pitch just a link to their published research..
But anyway sorry if I derailed slightly..

 

[Oldvatr]

@Oldvatr
I don't see much of a sales pitch just a link to their published research..
But anyway sorry if I derailed slightly..

I am not going to show the link I used since that would be counterintuitive to my stance. But it had 3 radio buttons on it, one of which was how much will it cost me? And that was the first site google listed. As you say, we did digress somewhat, so lets get back to discussing Reversing T2D.

 

[rab5]

I like the term reverse...... for me it means changing direction. Simples!

 

[Oldvatr]

Reversal is not such a controversial concept that it must only be uni-directional. Reversal does not imply cure...

I know how to reverse my car...I know how move it forward or leave it where it is...

If crazy amount of carbs results in glucotoxicity, then simply reduce it to a suitable level that does not result in glucotoxicity.

Given that knowledge, some simply prefer to stay away from carbs because it is too easy to be addicted to it again and over eat carbs...

Whilst I can accept that argument when applied to symptoms, I do not think it can yet be applied to the condition known as Diabetes per se.
This is what the Oxford Dictionary defines for Reversal:
A change to an opposite direction, position, or course of action.

So a change in diet or lifestyle from say Eatwell could be covered by this word. The word can also apply to the progession of the symptoms of T2D, but I think it is too early to apply it to the condition itself, since there may be long term effects that we are currently unaware of that might prove that even with rigid control, the disease will still progress in a damaging way. or that the new lifestyle may induce other comorbidities / collateral damage.

We have seen some posts here from people who have used treatment such as ND diet or LC diet to reverse their symptoms, and earn the Reversed badge of honour, but who later on have admitted that going back to their old ways proved to be just as damaging as before, and demonstrates that their symptoms can be controlled but not cured by reversing their dietary regime. It is early days yet, and we may see other effects creeping in. I am concerned that some are reporting iron deficiency anemia, others having gallstone problems, and what about CVE? we do not have a robust enough database yet to declare these new lifestyles to be totally without problem and fully safe to use.

The same dictionary has the following for Remission
A temporary diminution of the severity of disease or pain.

A thesaurus check on both words shows neither is synonymous with the other so they are not interchangeable.

 

[Jenny15]

Yes Jenny, you sure can. As an example here is a link to the diabetes agency in my domicile ( Australia ).
https://www.ndss.com.au/what-should-i-eat
The recommendations are, as we already know, in stark contrast to what I and others on this board have discovered. They actually promote the consumption of carbohydrate laden meals. After diagnosis I tried these guidelines with resulting high glucose levels and developing neuropathy. It wasn't until I stumbled upon this site and brought a bit of sensibility that is now so obvious back into my diet have things changed for the better.

The medical side can be found here.
https://static.diabetesaustralia.co...alia/5ed214a6-4cff-490f-a283-bc8279fe3b2f.pdf
It is a long document but they accept a pre-prandial of up to 8.0 mmol/L and a post of up to 10.0 as being within the guidelines.

Most countries are similar. My suspicion is that these guidelines are so loose simply because it is either too hard or too costly to adequately equip the diabetic population with good management. The members of this board are just a drop in a bucket population wise of the entire diabetic sufferers. The majority face worsening symptoms over time due to lack of understanding and lack of time for the medical practitioners to help them. The result is just a pervading acceptance that deterioration is inevitable.

I agree with you that government guidelines on what T2 diabetics should eat are way out of step with reality. Fortunately it is usually relatively save for us to throw that "guidance" out the window and learn from fellow people with T2 how to eat to your meter etc.

I wanted to be sure you were talking about food not medical treatment guidelines, which I consider basically sound. Not perfect, but scientifically supported enough to give me reasonable confidence that my GP is being guided well.

I have been living with long term disorders since my teens - I seem to acquire a new one on average every 3 years. I used to try to learn all I could about them but it's become almost overwhelming. So I rely more on my team of doctors and other HCPs than I did before.

I think you're right in that diabetic eating guidelines are underfunded and lower relative priority than the medical guidelines, where the wrong call can have an immediate short term effect of costing a life, with the attending doctor being held responsible. So they put more time and care into getting them right.

 

[Crocodile]

I like the term reverse...... for me it means changing direction. Simples!

Not quite so simple. It is only the symptoms that are reversed. Not the condition. An important difference.

 

[rab5]

Not quite so simple. It is only the symptoms that are reversed. Not the condition. An important difference.

Read what I said. Don’t put words in my mouth. I didn’t say it was cured. Simples !

 

[Crocodile]

Read what I said. Don’t put words in my mouth. I didn’t say it was cured. Simples !

Neither did I

 

[rab5]

Neither did I

Whatever

 

[bassamaklan]

Reverse, remission, or cure. It doesnt matter for me as I am satisfied with achieved results I got. I followed newcastle diet for 3 months and lost 15kg. my hba1c returned to 5.1 in 6 months and I get fbg readings between 90-105mg/dl constantly. As all of other guys mentioned here, lifestyle changing matters and keep you in good numbers. For me change diets amount, timing helped me a lot. I put my main meals in the following time frames (before 8am, between 12-1pm, and small low carb diet at 7pm). I am considering myself on moderatr carb diet which about 180gm daily.
The most interesting thing I have found that when I used bg readings for my friend and my wife and compare it with mine, I found them very similar as high readings , about 160mg/dl after meal, and they are not diabetics. I sarted to beleive in the common say "burn more than what you put in".
If I go back to old lifestyle, I will definitly gain weight and activate T2 symptoms again.

 

[john1957]

I agree with what you said ichman everyone is different