• Guest - w'd love to know what you think about the forum! Take the 2025 Survey »

Review of Prof. Taylor's Study in Medical Economics

Please re-read what I wrote. I was trying to be helpful, passing on the real news that some normal-weight people have tried weight loss and it did work. I was very also careful to point out that it's only worth trying if it's safe to do so for other reasons. I have never once written flippantly "why not give weight loss a go", they question you quote is not my question and is out of context. I've read many posts in this forum saying that the Newcastle studies don't apply to them, and, just as I like it when people give me information when I may be missing something, I think it's appropriate to let people know, in case they've missed it, that this thing can get results for normal weight people.

Taking the weight loss thing out of context is exactly what is happening. Not on this forum perhaps, but definitely in the uninformed general public. Every one "knows" that all fat people are have no will power. Everyone "knows" that all fat people get diabetes. And now everyone "knows" that if fat people had a bit of will power and just stopped eating as much then they wouldn't be diabetic any more.

All of this is obviously untrue. The vast majority of overweight people do not develop any type of diabetes. A number of diabetics (myself included) lose weight and are still diabetic. A large number of very thin people, like my mum and her sisters, develop diabetes and cannot afford to lose ANY weight at all.

I am pleased to see this research. It finally shows that t2d is not irreversible or has an inevitable sad end. But like many others I am very concerned that it seems to prove that recovery is entirely down to the will power of the patient.

I would like to think that is not the outcome the study has set out to prove. But reading some of the actual research I am not so sure. And like many people I am very unhappy at the bgl set as "reversal". It is far to high.

Please dont misunderstand me, I am happy to see any research that gives a positive and hopeful outcome. Its just that the way this has been presented backs up the idea that its all our own fault.
 
Taking the weight loss thing out of context is exactly what is happening. Not on this forum perhaps, but definitely in the uninformed general public. Every one "knows" that all fat people are have no will power. Everyone "knows" that all fat people get diabetes. And now everyone "knows" that if fat people had a bit of will power and just stopped eating as much then they wouldn't be diabetic any more.

All of this is obviously untrue. The vast majority of overweight people do not develop any type of diabetes. A number of diabetics (myself included) lose weight and are still diabetic. A large number of very thin people, like my mum and her sisters, develop diabetes and cannot afford to lose ANY weight at all.

I am pleased to see this research. It finally shows that t2d is not irreversible or has an inevitable sad end. But like many others I am very concerned that it seems to prove that recovery is entirely down to the will power of the patient.

I would like to think that is not the outcome the study has set out to prove. But reading some of the actual research I am not so sure. And like many people I am very unhappy at the bgl set as "reversal". It is far to high.

Please dont misunderstand me, I am happy to see any research that gives a positive and hopeful outcome. Its just that the way this has been presented backs up the idea that its all our own fault.

I totally agree, and I think the last point you make is the most unfortunate thing.

I really don't think there is much that can be done about that. The world is full of uneducated, judgemental people and often they have the loudest voices.

Put your favourite spokesman/woman in place of Roy Taylor to say all the things you want people to hear about Type 2 - the Daily Mail won't change.
 
<snip> But like many others I am very concerned that it seems to prove that recovery is entirely down to the will power of the patient. <snip>
All the while HCP's are telling patients that it (T2) is a progressive condition, it is only the will power of the patient that will permit them to prevail
 
All the while HCP's are telling patients that it (T2) is a progressive condition, it is only the will power of the patient that will permit them to prevail

Will power, determination, knowledge of how our metabolism works/doesn't work and a strong motivation seem to be the keys to remission/tight control/whatever we call it. The actual diet is mostly irrelevant, whether its Mediterranean, keto, low carb, very low calorie, low GI, low insulin, portion control, et al. Without the aforementioned keys ..... I doubt anything will work long term.
 
Even this site acknowledges that obesity is a major risk factor in 85% of T2 diabetes, whatever the causal relationship
https://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes-and-obesity.html
Knocking research that aims to find a way to moderate and possibly halt/ reverse that risk on the basis that 1) it is not obviously relevant to a small, but not insignificant % of cases ( hardly surprising in any research into T2 given that we already know T2 diagnosis in the UK at least covers a number of variants) 2) that it doesnt research the diet we’d have liked it to have done, is imo rather arrogant / short sighted nonseense
 
If you listen to the audio of Prof Taylor in the Lancet you will see where I get my take on his views.

He is asked about the growth in Type 2 in the UK.
He makes such statements as "the weight of the population is steadily rising:"
"everyone is carrying a few extra pounds"
"people are 1 1/2 stone heavier than 30 years ago"
"this is completely shocking"
"its a matter of food consumption"
"not contents of food more the quantity"

This is where I think he is missing the point. People don't develop Type 2 because they are overweight.
Being overweight and/ or having visceral fat is another symptom of a deranged metabolism where insulin function is impaired. Get the insulin function under control and you stand a far better chance of "reversing"/ "putting Type 2 into remission" or however you want to put it.
Such statements as its about the quantity not the contents of food sound to me remarkably similar to Daily Mail type quotes.
I would say that it is all about the contents of the food. But then again I would....

I'm posting this for everyone but quoting you as you seem to have the biggest beef. I've put some time into doing a transcription of that audio. It's not word-perfect but I think it's a faithful representation of the interview. Here it is with my own take on various points:


* [When asked about what the current guidelines are for dealing with Type 2 in the UK]: "Typically [in normal healthcare practice], a person with a new Diagnosis of Type 2 would be advised to lose some weight and exercise more and to change their diet. They might be referred to a dietician. Quite often Metformin tablets would be provided. That's the general thrust of the current guidelines."

My take: this brings into focus that ALREADY Type 2's are told to put some effort into diet, weight and exercise. This is not a new thing, so if one objects to it, focussing all the debate against the DiRECT study is too narrow.


* "The intervention in DiRECT was to have a distinct period of weight loss, aiming to lose about 15% of body weight. On day 1, we stopped all anti-diabetic tablets. People were excluded if they were already on insulin just for reasons of simplicity."

My take: That's a fair point, but also it would be good to mention the duration of Type 2 and why long-duration patients were excluded.


* "The treatment didn't end there. After the weight loss period, we had a very carefully controlled, stepped, reintroduction of food, and that was crucial to lead into the long-term weight management which reflected behavioral input, in order to try to modify long-term habits and keep the weight down."

My take: He's clearly recognising the importance of lifestyle change and saying that this isn't a quick fix.


* [When asked "How successful was the approach?"] "The headline figure was about half of all the intervention group achieved remission at one year. Importantly, keeping that remission up to the one year mark. That's the headline figure and very exciting, but what is even clearer, behind the headline, is the effect of each amount of weight loss. If people achieve the target of losing 15kg, then 86%, nearly 9/10 people, achieve remission. Over 10kg then 73%. And so, as we went down with the weight loss, so less and less people achieved remission, and of course with no weight change, there was no remission."

My take: It seems a little simplistic, and I'd like him to cover the fact it doesn't work for everyone. But you can't expect a scientist to get results like this and not focus on weight loss. He's only getting a short interview so he might as well deliver the big message from his own studies.


* [Asked "If people gain weight again will it return?"] "I would say it's virtually a certainty. We can now see very clearly what is causing Type 2. It's very much a matter of an individual having more fat in the body than they can cope with, and it's silted up in the liver and pancreas. By the approach used in DiRECT, we know from our basic studies, that the fat in the liver and pancreas, will be scooted out and these organs return to normal function. So if the fat is allowed to get back into the body and re-accumulate, then it is a virtual certainty that Type 2 will develop. That's why we talk about remission and not cure."

My take: Again it seems a bit too simplistic - i.e. he should be mentioning the fact that it doesn't work for everyone, and that there are competing theories about Type 2 that don't agree it's "all" about beta cells being turned off by fat.


* [When asked about the possibility of the new approach being rolled out as standard medical care] "Importantly, there was ongoing support for the individuals in the study, so they could come back and see the practice nurse every few months for ongoing support. We know from other studies that ongoing support is really one of the most important parts of prevention of weight regain."

My take: None, I just might as well put the quote here since I've made the effort to transcribe it.


* [When asked if there is anything the government could be doing to help people with their weight management] "I think the urgency of the current situation whereby the weight of the population is steadily rising - IT'S NOT PEOPLE BECOMING GROSSLY OBESE - THAT TENDS TO BE FOCUSED ON BY NEWS PROGRAMMES - it's a matter of everyone carrying extra pounds that they wouldn't have been carrying even 30 years ago. The hard fact is that the average man and woman is a stone and a half heavier than they would have been 30 years ago. That's a shocking statistic. This has got to be grasped and acted upon, but at the present time the message is rather confused. We have to realise that this is largely a matter of food consumption, certainly physical activity can help, but we do need legislation to regulate the activity of the food industry, not so much in the contents but the quantity of food provided, some of which is extremely unsuitable and runs against what we need to achieve as a country, which is a reversal of this steady increase in average weight."

My take: 1) He was ASKED if the government could do anything, so he's bound to think in terms of trends that the government may be able to influence, such as population weight 2) The bit I've put in capitals shows that he also has a problem with Daily Mail mentality. 3) I think he's being too simplistic focusing on food quantities rather than contents.

---

Overall, I can understand people's objections to some of it, but also I think his message has been misrepresented / misunderstood / missed in parts.
 
This is where I think he is missing the point. People don't develop Type 2 because they are overweight.
Being overweight and/ or having visceral fat is another symptom of a deranged metabolism where insulin function is impaired. Get the insulin function under control and you stand a far better chance of "reversing"/ "putting Type 2 into remission" or however you want to put it.

Agreed 100% @bulkbiker! It is the paradigm that is flawed!

Many of us believe that we are where we are precisely because the medical and dietary establishment have subscribed to the ‘energy-in energy’ out paradigm -the “energy-balance theory” - for over 100 years. In biblical terms, we are gluttons and sloths – we eat too much and exercise too little. And, as long as the dieticians and doctors continue to subscribe to this theory, they will be blind to what many of us on this forum believe to be the true cause of our metabolic dysfunction, and that is an excess of carbohydrates/sugars in our diet.

Many of us have followed the official dietary guidance, and have failed, because that guidance not only fails to address the root cause of our problem, it advocates that we feed our bodies large amounts of the very nutrient (and I use that term loosely) that makes our condition worse. As long as that is the official advice people will continue to develop T2 in high numbers. We have every right to be concerned and protest loudly whenever the gluttony and sloth paradigm is invoked!

We are fortunate in the current era to have the internet, because it enables us to disrupt the status quo where the ‘calories in, calories out’ paradigm which still reigns strong, and we have access to the ‘wisdom of crowds’ – via this very forum where we, as individuals with this condition are trying different approaches based on common sense – and sharing our personal findings with the larger group.

The internet has also permitted individuals from other disciplines to bring their specific professional expertise to addressing the problem of T2, such as engineers such as @FatEmperor who bring the science of complex problem solving to the table.

We are disruptors, and we are moving science forward; indeed we are adding to the body of medical and nutritional knowledge just by entertaining the idea that different approaches work. No one discipline has a monopoly on knowledge. And I think it's worth reading a recent blog by Dr. Jason Fung, where he notes that the winner of the 1949 Nobel Prize in medicine was the doctor who invented the ice-pick lobotomy procedure. The medical establishment does get it wrong from time to time! https://idmprogram.com/therapeutic-nutrition-paradigm-21st-century-medicine/

If you haven’t already, @AdamJames, check out Gary Taubes, an investigative science and health journalist. Here is the link to his website: http://garytaubes.com/

Here is a snippet from a recent Mother Jones interview with Taubes titled:

“The Most Popular Theory About What Causes Obesity May Be Very Wrong: And it’s hijacking the search for what’s really causing Americans to gain weight.”

The point is, clinging to the energy-balance theory prevents progress.

‘So if obesity isn’t an energy-balance disorder, but is rather a metabolic defect, says Taubes, “you have to fix the hormonal thing.” And “the way you start fixing it is you get rid of all the sugar in your diet.”’​

http://www.motherjones.com/environm...-might-be-ruining-our-fight-against-obesity/#
 
Hi. I have some reservations about Pro Taylor's research. First we see the quotes about '800 calories' when I would challenge what 'calories' have to do with eating (shock!) and he should surely know this? Measuring the calorie value of foods eaten is of little use when you realise that the body's metabolism works completely differently between carbs and fats for example. As someone said on another forum this week if you eat a lump of coal you are eating a lot of 'calories' but I'm not sure what the body would do with all that 'energy'. Prof Taylor should surely be looking at the metabolic outcomes of different food types with regard to weight loss (and possibly blood sugar if he considers diabetes as well). I also get a bit bored with his talk about pancreatic and liver fat. This is no doubt a problem but what about the fat also deposited in muscle cells around the body that causes insulin resistance and aids and abets T2. In summary he appears to cherry-pick lines of investigation and research. I've no doubt the ND helps a lot of people but I wonder if those same people would have similar outcomes by just following a LCHF diet and LCHF is more of a long-term lifestyle approach as many of us know and follow.
 
Many of us believe that we are where we are precisely because the medical and dietary establishment have subscribed to the ‘energy-in energy’ out paradigm -the “energy-balance theory” - for over 100 years. In biblical terms, we are gluttons and sloths – we eat too much and exercise too little. And, as long as the dieticians and doctors continue to subscribe to this theory, they will be blind to what many of us on this forum believe to be the true cause of our metabolic dysfunction, and that is an excess of carbohydrates/sugars in our diet.

The weight thing is always going to be contentious and so it should. It certainly isn't straight forward and that's before we start talking about willpower, that rarely comes into my failures. The Harris Benedict formula doesn't calculate my daily intake by a long chalk. My weight problem would be a lot worse if I followed "guidelines". I'll be doing a "fat, sick and nearly dead" version of the ND. Breakfast will be juiced, lunch will be soup and dinner steamed or roasted. Just veg. The trays of Mediterranean veg at Tesco are 130 calories and I could probably manage 4 a day. LOL
 
If you haven’t already, @AdamJames, check out Gary Taubes, an investigative science and health journalist. Here is the link to his website: http://garytaubes.com/

Here is a snippet from a recent Mother Jones interview with Taubes titled:

“The Most Popular Theory About What Causes Obesity May Be Very Wrong: And it’s hijacking the search for what’s really causing Americans to gain weight.”

The point is, clinging to the energy-balance theory prevents progress.

‘So if obesity isn’t an energy-balance disorder, but is rather a metabolic defect, says Taubes, “you have to fix the hormonal thing.” And “the way you start fixing it is you get rid of all the sugar in your diet.”’​

http://www.motherjones.com/environm...-might-be-ruining-our-fight-against-obesity/#

I've just started listening to the MJ audio now, I'll leave it on while I do some housework. I'll look at the Gary Taubes site later. Thanks!
 
In what way is he any "worse" than a scientist who tells someone "If you want to reduce your risks of skin cancer, stay out of the sun". Is that scientist blaming people for skin cancer? Or just telling it like it is, offering information which can help people.
Even that guidance is being questioned now @AdamJames due to the increase in Vitamin D deficiency and the emerging knowledge of the metabolic effects of said deficiency:
'The Big Vitamin D Mistake'
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5541280/pdf/jpmph-50-4-278.pdf
 
No one discipline has a monopoly on knowledge.

I've listened to that audio now. It was interesting but having done a lot of reading / watching youtube stuff / food documentaries on Netflix etc(!), plus my own life experiences, it's pretty much nothing new to me.

I know people who seem to eat a ton and are thin. And I was aware that it's not as simple as energy in vs energy out, for all sorts of reasons not covered there. Also I've watched various things which make a very good case for targeting sugar as the current dietary bad-guy.

I've quoted the bit from your post that I did because I think that's the most important thing, given the strong opinions expressed all over this thread.

We all need to look at scientific findings and other people's experiences to give us ideas about what might work for *us*, and also be honest with ourselves about what has and hasn't worked for us, and to communicate that honestly if we are on a forum like this.

Me, I'm focusing on the big stuff right now. I monitored my calorie, fat and carb intake months ago at weekends, when I go overboard on the alcohol and food of all sorts. The calorie intake was huge - I don't want to give the numbers because it's shocking. And the day after drinking, not only was my appetite crazy, but I felt so ill from the hangover that I also didn't do much activity - no walking, which is one of my hobbies. So regardless of the nuances of how a body can gain weight, that's my first problem right there to focus on. Huge calorie intake and no exercise in spite of enjoying walking. Guess what? I've reduced the calorie intake and increased the exercise and the weight is dropping off.

I'd be foolish, right now, to get wound up about the detail and nuances of it all. There's something huge for me to focus on first and see what benefits I can get from sorting that out.

Later, whether I can improve my metabolism or not, I'll sweat the details to see what further gains in health I can make.

And I'm certainly not from generation snowflake. I don't care if my choice in eating and exercise has helped trigger Type 2 or not. I just know I didn't want to get Type 2, I don't like having it, and if there is a strong link between body fat and Type 2 then it's worth me focusing on the big stuff first.

The solutions to the problems which are at the heart of the debate in this thread, I think, are:

* People really shouldn't assume that what works for them will work for others
* People shouldn't assume that one way is the only way
* People should look at data as a way to potentially solve problems, not as a tool for apportioning blame
 
We all need to look at scientific findings and other people's experiences to give us ideas about what might work for *us*, and also be honest with ourselves about what has and hasn't worked for us, and to communicate that honestly if we are on a forum like this.
Again we agree... I know that limiting calories does not work for me in the long term and Prof Taylor says that calories need to be restricted forever after finishing the 800 cal part of the ND. So you'll get slowing BMR's and needing to cut cals further to maintain the lost weight .. it's the same old vicious circle that we have seen so often before. Very telling in my humble opinion that he said it is not the content of the food but the amount... therein lies his problem. But this is getting boring so I'll just shut up and clear off. Happy new year all!
 
The solutions to the problems which are at the heart of the debate in this thread, I think, are:

* People really shouldn't assume that what works for them will work for others
* People shouldn't assume that one way is the only way
* People should look at data as a way to potentially solve problems, not as a tool for apportioning blame
And I would add:
* People such as ourselves are generating valuable data which is sometimes overlooked or minimised because it it not deemed to be expert opinion. This way of thinking fails all of us.
* Ultimately, only we have the power to make the changes we need to make to optimise our health. And that is the value of the debates on this site. The established dogma is the Eatwell Plate. That particular 'one way' has not worked out well for many of us here. Many of us here are using the wisdom of crowds to our advantage. And for many of us it is working spectacularly well.

I always appreciate your thoughtful and measured comments @AdamJames :).
 
Again we agree... I know that limiting calories does not work for me in the long term and Prof Taylor says that calories need to be restricted forever after finishing the 800 cal part of the ND. So you'll get slowing BMR's and needing to cut cals further to maintain the lost weight .. it's the same old vicious circle that we have seen so often before. Very telling in my humble opinion that he said it is not the content of the food but the amount... therein lies his problem. But this is getting boring so I'll just shut up and clear off. Happy new year all!

I don't think it's boring at all and I'd prefer it if you didn't shut up and clear off! Well okay maybe the particular points in this thread have been gone over enough that most people know where most other people are coming from!

I think we agree on most things, including your last (and earlier) point on the content of food being important, but it's interesting to debate the points of disagreement.
 
And I would add:
* People such as ourselves are generating valuable data which is sometimes overlooked or minimised because it it not deemed to be expert opinion. This way of thinking fails all of us.
* Ultimately, only we have the power to make the changes we need to make to optimise our health. And that is the value of the debates on this site. The established dogma is the Eatwell Plate. That particular 'one way' has not worked out well for many of us here. Many of us here are using the wisdom of crowds to our advantage. And for many of us it is working spectacularly well.

I always appreciate your thoughtful and measured comments @AdamJames :).

And I like your additions, couldn't agree more :)

And my head hurts and I've had enough for today, so I'll second:

Happy new year all!
 
Back
Top