Saturated fat

[Oldvatr]

I think this was discussed in another thread here
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/thr...ut-michael-greger-says-about-diabetes.104510/

I have nothing to add.

 

[lindisfel]

yes but the statistics of the rate of diabetes in vegans do you also think that has been tampered with..?

No Freema, I think a lot of vegans eat less calories as opposed to the gross carb eaters, hence they have less visceral fat and less diabetes. Vegans who eat a lot of carbs get fat. It is refined carbs that kill us and we do not have control over their intake because we foul up our satiety hormone by stuffing ourselves with cakes and bread, etc etc.
Anyway, I like meat! Derek

 

[Oldvatr]

yes but the statistics of the rate of diabetes in vegans do you also think that has been tampered with..?

I am not getting at you, but whose statistics are you referring to? I would like to see trial evidence that demonstrates this from a reputable source, and then it would make sense to me. The only source of statistic info I could find, (apart from that given by NutritionFacts.org that is) was the ADA study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2671114/

I did a broad search on Google, but came up with nothing, although there was a report that a vegan diet can provide a slight benefit for treatment due to generally lower BMI in vegans. I have no problems with others choosing to follow a vegetarian diet, It is not for me, simples.

I do find the pseudo science used to justify vegan and whole plant based diets a bit irksome though

 

[Freema]

No Freema, I think a lot of vegans eat less calories as opposed to the gross carb eaters, hence they have less visceral fat and less diabetes.
But I like meat! Derek

I like meat too... and do eat meat... I am only discussing the saturated fats.

 

[Freema]

I am not getting at you, but whose statistics are you referring to? I would like to see trial evidence that demonstrates this from a reputable source, and then it would make sense to me. The only source of statistic info I could find, (apart from that given by NutritionFacts.org that is) was the ADA study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2671114/

I did a broad search on Google, but came up with nothing, although there was a report that a vegan diet can provide a slight benefit for treatment due to generally lower BMI in vegans. I have no problems with others choosing to follow a vegetarian diet, It is not for me, simples.

I do find the pseudo science used to justify vegan and whole plant based diets a bit irksome though

okay I´ll try later myself to find the original statistics that this vegan Michal Gregor uses, as I remember it it was an European statistic in which there was about 12.000 vegans among... but i am not a 100% sure... but will try to see if I can find a link to this statistic myself and see WHO stood behind it too..

 

[Lamont D]

yes but that is not saturated fat as far as I am concerned...I am not aginst fats...I am just not sure that saturated fats in huge amounts are healthy..

As far as I'm aware and through my experiences with fats, and I know that I'm different in some ways than a diabetic but I'm susceptible to a lot of foods.
So, a low carb, higher fat lifestyle does not mean huge amounts of saturated fats is good for you!
It's not!
But not having vegetable oils in my diet is so beneficial to me. I do not overload on saturated far but I now know that a higher amount of saturated fats is healthier!
I think the phrase, in moderation is apt in this discussion!

 

[Freema]

As far as I'm aware and through my experiences with fats, and I know that I'm different in some ways than a diabetic but I'm susceptible to a lot of foods.
So, a low carb, higher fat lifestyle does not mean huge amounts of saturated fats is good for you!
It's not!
But not having vegetable oils in my diet is so beneficial to me. I do not overload on saturated far but I now know that a higher amount of saturated fats is healthier!
I think the phrase, in moderation is apt in this discussion!

yes there are some kind of plant oil that are best to avoid.. and the trans fat-acids too... and maybe some saturated fats are good for maintaining a good hormonal condition... it is still a riddle ... and guesswork for most of us as most of the official guidelines do us not much good..... and even seem to be dangerous to diabetics type 2...

 

[Oldvatr]

okay I´ll try later myself to find the original statistics that this vegan Michal Gregor uses, as I remember it it was an European statistic in which there was about 12.000 vegans among... but i am not a 100% sure... but will try to see if I can find a link to this statistic myself and see WHO stood behind it too..

Try the Adventist Health Study from Linda Loma University (think it is AH-2 that discusses diet), They certainly support Greger,, according to the LDS missionaries who visited us this week, and who want me to give up LCHF as being harmful to my mortal soul, along with all hot drinks esp coffee and tea. Apparently diet coke is best for diabetics, so guess who has just lost my vote...... So, if that is his source for statistics on diabetes, then yes, I am biassed,

WHO do not seem to distinguish dietary influences on their data base. Their UK info for 2016 has no diet related info for their diabetes statistics.

 

[Freema]

Try the Adventist Health Study from Linda Loma University (think it is AH-2 that discusses diet), They certainly support Greger,, according to the LDS missionaries who visited us this week, and who want me to give up LCHF as being harmful to my mortal soul, along with all hot drinks esp coffee and tea. Apparently diet coke is best for diabetics, so guess who has just lost my vote...... So, if that is his source for statistics on diabetes, then yes, I am biassed,

WHO do not seem to distinguish dietary influences on their data base. Their UK info for 2016 has no diet related info for their diabetes statistics.

I think this is the study he has decifered and made his conclusions from, but I can not really get access to the real study :
"the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition (EPIC) study"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Prospective_Investigation_into_Cancer_and_Nutrition

 

[Oldvatr]

yes there are some kind of plant oil that are best to avoid.. and the trans fat-acids too... and maybe some saturated fats are good for maintaining a good hormonal condition... it is still a riddle ... and guesswork for most of us as most of the official guidelines do us not much good..... and even seem to be dangerous to diabetics type 2...

Think it is better than guesswork:
http://www.bmj.com/content/351/bmj.h3978
(Published earlier this year)

 

[Freema]

Think it is better than guesswork:
http://www.bmj.com/content/351/bmj.h3978
(Published earlier this year)

that seems to be a convinsing study concerning the number of participans involved

 

[Freema]

well in this video

Michael Gregor Refers to a study from 2002 where 8000 vegans have been followed for 18 years,
is must be this "the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition (EPIC) study"
as it was released in 2002 and was the only study till then that involved so many vegetarians and as an undergroup vegans.

 

[Oldvatr]

I think this is the study he has decifered and made his conclusions from, but I can not really get access to the real study :
"the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition (EPIC) study"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Prospective_Investigation_into_Cancer_and_Nutrition

Does not seem to mention either diabetes or vegetarian/ vegan. Seems to be cancer - centric. This study does not seem to support Greger's views at all, so am I correct in assuming this reply was made to me?

Where EPIC does relate to vegetarian lifestyle is in all cause mortality in relation to meat consumption. The only risk association they found was in connection with PROCESSED meat, not meat itself, and certainly not saturated fat,.
See:
http://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-7015-11-63

 

[Freema]

Does not seem to mention either diabetes or vegetarian/ vegan. Seems to be cancer - centric. This study does not seem to support Greger's views at all, so am I correct in assuming this reply was made to me?

Where EPIC does relate to vegetarian lifestyle is in all cause mortality in relation to meat consumption. The only risk association they found was in connection with PROCESSED meat, not meat itself, and certainly not saturated fat,.
See:
http://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-7015-11-63

this study is still gong on... and not all has been mentioned in the Wikipedia writing..

 

[Brunneria]

There are a lot of other factors relevant to the discussion @Freema - so many that they muddy the argument.
A well designed vegan diet is going to contain a LOT of fibre, and fibre has a big effect on slowing digestion and slowing glucose absorption.
A badly designed vegan diet is going to contain just as much rubbish and junk food as a non-vegan.
Processed food may be a factor.
The interaction of fat and carbs needs to be considered, not just one or the other.
Saturated fat is probably one small part of the equation.

Plus, from my point of view, I am not in the slightest bit interested as to why vegans have a higher or lower rate of T2 than non-vegans. It is a diet that my body could not tolerate and my taste buds would reject. While I respect vegan ethics, they are not ethics with which I align.

Since I am ALREADY T2, and have found an excellent and effective way of controlling it (LCHF, with animal products) that suits my body, I am happy with that. In fact, I would rather have T2 than eat a vegan diet. Obviously that is a personal opinion, and other people feel very differently. I hope they are both happy and healthy.

 

[Freema]

There are a lot of other factors relevant to the discussion @Freema - so many that they muddy the argument.
A well designed vegan diet is going to contain a LOT of fibre, and fibre has a big effect on slowing digestion and slowing glucose absorption.
A badly designed vegan diet is going to contain just as much rubbish and junk food as a non-vegan.
Processed food may be a factor.
The interaction of fat and carbs needs to be considered, not just one or the other.
Saturated fat is probably one small part of the equation.

Plus, from my point of view, I am not in the slightest bit interested as to why vegans have a higher or lower rate of T2 than non-vegans. It is a diet that my body could not tolerate and my taste buds would reject. While I respect vegan ethics, they are not ethics with which I align.

Since I am ALREADY T2, and have found an excellent and effective way of controlling it (LCHF, with animal products) that suits my body, I am happy with that. In fact, I would rather have T2 than eat a vegan diet. Obviously that is a personal opinion, and other people feel very differently. I hope they are both happy and healthy.

yes all respect for your point of views and what you prefer, but i am still looking for a cure and would not if I could prevent it do anything that would worsen my chances of later on have the chance of being cured naturally... but of cause there is not a true 100% answer to that yet

 

[serenity648]

yes all respect for your point of views and what you prefer, but i am still looking for a cure and would not if I could prevent it do anything that would worsen my chances of later on have the chance of being cured naturally... but of cause there is not a true 100% answer to that yet

what do you mean by being cured naturally? and what do you mean by cured?

for me, the 'cure' is to eat to my meter.

 

[Freema]

what do you mean by being cured naturally? and what do you mean by cured?

for me, the 'cure' is to eat to my meter.

I mean cured in the way that I can again eat carbs in higher amounts..

 

[Avocado Sevenfold]

Hi @Freema I don't worship any doctors or read much scientific research. Just do your own thing and find your own way would be my advice. You are your own experiment. Since I stopped eating animal fat this year, my hba1c dropped 5 points. I am still eating lots of saturated fats from nuts and seeds, but the only animal fat I am burning now is my own - 20 pounds of it from my belly this year alone. It is what it is so I don't overthink it. All the best

 

[Struma]

@Freema My family was recruited as participants onto the EPIC Trial from its inception in early 90's.
We were given to understand its purpose was the relationship of nutrition to cancer. My goodness there was a lot of paperwork/questions to be filled in each time, around 50 x A4!!