Statins?

[Guzzler]

He is not good at interviews. I have listened to radio programs where he said he had not tested statins for adverse side effects, another where he said that that he did hold pre trial tests and weeded out some people and each time I got the impression that the world would have been a better place if he mentioned all that earlier.

With all those revelations I wonder what evidence N.I.C.E. used to recommend that everyone with a certain risk should be offered statins. Even the positive evidence which we assume exists has not been made available.

I feel happy that I have been there, done that, got the T shirt, and now have the comment "Intolerant of Statins" on my record.

What I really do not understand is that if we as lay people can find all this information then why are these drugs being so fervently pushed by HCPs who have chosen to be part of a profession whose first law is 'Do No Harm'.

 

[Guzzler]

Hi,

I remember that on Trust Me I'm a Doctor programme Dr M Moseley found out that he had high cholesterol and as a result of the research he was doing weighed up the pros and cons.... And everyone correct me if I remember this wrong but he opted to take and so start using statins...

I remember from the program that he took the state of his health quute badly as he hadn't been expecting it...

You hit the nail on the head regarding his research. He looked into the pros and cons (at that juncture) and based his decision on his reading. He did not blindly accept the advice to take the statin without a second thought.
Doctor Moseley was a GP but has admitted he did not enjoy his time as such and so switched to Medical Journalism (not, as some people may think, medical research). He based his decision on data available at that time and had to take into consideration his T2 status while coming to terms with the death of his father who was also T2 and who died at a comparatively young age.
I have a great deal of time for those who do their own research and base their decisions on such. I have no time for people who just follow the herd.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

I have no time for people who just follow the herd.

You definitely have to try Statins before making a decision about whether to take them or not.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

I have no time for people who just follow the herd.

Which herd? Those who blindly take everything they're told to or those who exercise some caution? I'm being pedantic, I think?

 

[Guzzler]

Which herd? Those who blindly take everything they're told to or those who exercise some caution? I'm being pedantic, I think?

The herd as in those who refuse to approach a decision without one whit of thought and if pushed will cite that 'Hey! Loads of people are doing this'.

 

[Guzzler]

You definitely have to try Statins before making a decision about whether to take them or not.

I did! Within five days I suffered pain, pain which two HCPs told me that I couldn't possibly have!

 

[Guzzler]

You definitely have to try Statins before making a decision about whether to take them or not.

Forgive me, I should try stains for the purpose of lowering cholesterol even though the evidence of benefit from lowered cholesterol levels is founded on dodgy research? That more people die with low cholesterol having had a fatal heart attack? It goes back to the point of informed consent. One cannot possibly make an informed choice if the evidence does not bear scrutiny.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

Forgive me, I should try stains for the purpose of lowering cholesterol even though the evidence of benefit from lowered cholesterol levels is founded on dodgy research?

We're on the same side here, I think. What I'm suggesting is that it's obvious some people take these rotten things without the slightest bit of trouble, whether they are better off with cholesterol as low as you can get it is another matter all together. We need cholesterol! What is important is if you try them and you get the muscle pain which in my case was not insignificant, and if you get the brain fog, again something that affects me to today and then there's the poor sleep, also a problem for me today, if you experience any of that, the GP shouldn't be forcing you (and by you I mean one in general, not you personally) or expecting you to take anything, never mind statins.

 

[Guzzler]

We're on the same side here, I think. What I'm suggesting is that it's obvious some people take these rotten things without the slightest bit of trouble, whether they are better off with cholesterol as low as you can get it is another matter all together. We need cholesterol! What is important is if you try them and you get the muscle pain which in my case was not insignificant, and if you get the brain fog, again something that affects me to today and then there's the poor sleep, also a problem for me today, if you experience any of that, the GP shouldn't be forcing you (and by you I mean one in general, not you personally) or expecting you to take anything, never mind statins.

A GP has no place 'forcing' any treatment on any patient. I know why many do (because they are incentivised) but cannot understand why by ticking a box and ignoring reports from a patient of side effects and more importantly disregarding the freedom of choice that we all enjoy or should enjoy.
Atorvastatin is the only drug I have ever refused to take. The GP panicked me with the qrisk nonesense so I gave in and took them for one week. During that week I added to my knowledge on statin use/evidence or lack thereof and came to the conclusion that my initial decision to refuse the drug was correct, for me. I am embarrassed that I let fear colour my judgement for those few days. I am now being mithered about my (sky high) cholesterol level but have armoured myself for the next time it is raised. My main and first argument being that it is me who ultimately decides what I put into my body not a DN, not HCA and not a GP.

 

[Bluetit1802]

You definitely have to try Statins before making a decision about whether to take them or not.

Everyone? Why should anyone take a cholesterol lowering drug if their cholesterol doesn't need lowering? Yet all diabetics, and all non-diabetics over 40, are being pushed to take them even if their cholesterol is normal. How does that work? It is simply over medicating. Maybe in the future statins will become like anti-biotics and stop working due to over medicating with them.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

Everyone?

First of all, I stopped taking them after 17 years, when six of one's mother's siblings died from heart attacks one is more likely to do as one is told, it was not an easy decision but at the end of the day I had to ignore the huge amount of information available because my brain couldn't take it all in (statin brain fog maybe?) and I just asked myself "do I want to continue living with this amount of muscle pain and brain fog? Although GPs shouldn't, some GPs will use some dirty tricks. Somebody I know was actually told "take them or die". Of course that is not proper or correct practice, but it happened.

Everyone? No, not everyone. I wouldn't even suggest it. By the way, statins don't have to kill bacteria or any similar thing so unlikely to stop working for the same reasons antibiotics are becoming less effective.

If one is prescribed a statin it is not my or anybody's place but the individual or a GP to say do or don't take them. It is my opinion a very personal choice for which only me, myself and I is responsible for. However, if one is prescribed a statin, it is worth trying, if the side effects are evident straight away stop. They do actually benefit some people, just not me or you.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

A GP has no place 'forcing' any treatment on any patient.

By the way, I'm not disagreeing, but . . . . .

Of course they don't have any right to do that . . . . it's just that they do, often.

ignoring reports from a patient of side effects

Have you reported the side effects you experienced, not just to your GP? Have you used the yellow card system?
https://yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/ for anybody experiencing side effects, please report it, otherwise the like of a certain Professor will have all the evidence stacked in his favour as will his colleague who is supposed to be looking into the extent of people suffering side effects, despite having made her mind up as to the outcome.

The GP panicked me with the qrisk nonsense so I gave in and took them for one week.

It's a naff assessment which doesn't include life style choices like diet and exercise.

During that week I added to my knowledge on statin use/evidence or lack thereof and came to the conclusion that my initial decision to refuse the drug was correct, for me.

I've read so many books and watched so many videos over a much longer period than a week or two, my brain is a mess, totally addled. I'm not a medic and in theory should take notice of medics, only they seem to be economic with the truth. I'm also totally depressed that I was being asked to take something that quite clearly has some pretty awful side effects. I keep coming back to the Merck patent of 1990, that's how long ago they knew about the prevention of the uptake of CoQ10 which causes the muscle pain. Surprise, surprise, we need CoQ10.

(sky high) cholesterol level

That must make your decision making more difficult. I've been lucky enough to have had some thorough checking of my heart and tubes, albeit because of a greedy US MD who was going to refer me for a triple bypass until I said my travel insurance didn't cover it. Bit of a pain as the insurance company were going to send a nurse to accompany me home until I told them that I hadn't felt better and that just before going on holiday I'd been digging 5m X 3m X 500mm foundations which I then filled with 2500 kgs of pea-stones, bought at Wickes and transported by me in my car 15 bags at a time and taken to the end of garden by me, 3 bags in a wheelbarrow at a time. The point being perhaps GPs should look at the state of people's heart and tubes before deciding whether statin therapy is required. Somehow I can't see them spending any of their precious money, just dish out the tablets.

I'm lucky with my GPs, they know why I now don't take statins and as I've shown I can manipulate my BG and TC by diet alone, they're happy.

 

[Bluetit1802]

When I was first diagnosed I was given statins and took them because at the time I knew no better. My cholesterol at the time wasn't very bad. Only my LDL was high. It was 4.0, so not drastic. Everything else was normal. I took them for 3 months then stopped. (no obvious side effects). I had a test just after this, which revealed my LDL had dropped down to 1.6. My HDL also dropped, which wasn't supposed to happen, but it did. Trigs were more or less unchanged.

That is about the same time I started eating to my meter and low carb. Since then I have had 8 lipid tests. My LDL went up but only to the high 2s, my trigs have plummeted to 0.6 , and my HDL is higher than ever it has been at 2.5. All lipids are stable, and all without statins.

So, in my case, all that the statins did was to lower my LDL and also my HDL. My diet regime has done a much better job.

I appreciate this won't work for everyone, but for me it did work. Yet my GP and nurse continued to nag me about statins until I asked for it to be on my notes that I will not take them because I don't need them. Nagging stopped.

 

[Guzzler]

By the way, I'm not disagreeing, but . . . . .

Of course they don't have any right to do that . . . . it's just that they do, often.



Have you reported the side effects you experienced, not just to your GP? Have you used the yellow card system?
https://yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/ for anybody experiencing side effects, please report it, otherwise the like of a certain Professor will have all the evidence stacked in his favour as will his colleague who is supposed to be looking into the extent of people suffering side effects, despite having made her mind up as to the outcome.



It's a naff assessment which doesn't include life style choices like diet and exercise.



I've read so many books and watched so many videos over a much longer period than a week or two, my brain is a mess, totally addled. I'm not a medic and in theory should take notice of medics, only they seem to be economic with the truth. I'm also totally depressed that I was being asked to take something that quite clearly has some pretty awful side effects. I keep coming back to the Merck patent of 1990, that's how long ago they knew about the prevention of the uptake of CoQ10 which causes the muscle pain. Surprise, surprise, we need CoQ10.



That must make your decision making more difficult. I've been lucky enough to have had some thorough checking of my heart and tubes, albeit because of a greedy US MD who was going to refer me for a triple bypass until I said my travel insurance didn't cover it. Bit of a pain as the insurance company were going to send a nurse to accompany me home until I told them that I hadn't felt better and that just before going on holiday I'd been digging 5m X 3m X 500mm foundations which I then filled with 2500 kgs of pea-stones, bought at Wickes and transported by me in my car 15 bags at a time and taken to the end of garden by me, 3 bags in a wheelbarrow at a time. The point being perhaps GPs should look at the state of people's heart and tubes before deciding whether statin therapy is required. Somehow I can't see them spending any of their precious money, just dish out the tablets.

I'm lucky with my GPs, they know why I now don't take statins and as I've shown I can manipulate my BG and TC by diet alone, they're happy.

Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear. My decision to refuse a statin was made well, well before I was ever 'offered' one based on my research into the strong familial history of heart related deaths in my close and wider family. My knowledge is not based on a coupla weeks reading.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

My knowledge is not based on a coupla weeks reading.

There's a lot out there, it was driving me potty because I couldn't remember half of what I read or saw. It's why I could only make a decision based on how it was affecting my life. Backed up by the fact that my GP, knowing CoQ10 was the problem, could notprescribe it or recommend how much to take.

 

[Guzzler]

There's a lot out there, it was driving me potty because I couldn't remember half of what I read or saw. It's why I could only make a decision based on how it was affecting my life. Backed up by the fact that my GP, knowing CoQ10 was the problem, could notprescribe it or recommend how much to take.

Indeed, there are tonnes of 'information' and just sorting out who might be a reliable source is a task all of its own.

 

[bangkokdiabetic]

My Doctor n Bangkok put me on 20mg of crestor after i had a stroke (already Diabetic) I looked up Statins on the internet and asked my doc if I could reduce dose she said no I reduced to 10mg then to 5mg I now have a different Doc who is quite Happy with my Levels. 15Yrs Later Of Course I have to keep my BG under control my HbA1c has been 6.1 every 3 months so far this year seeing doc again in two weeks

 

[maureen5752]

Wish my doctor would check me every 3 months. I get checked every 12/14 months depending when appiontment available. At least every 3 months you know if your on the right track &. If not can make some adjustments

 

[Bluetit1802]

Wish my doctor would check me every 3 months. I get checked every 12/14 months depending when appiontment available. At least every 3 months you know if your on the right track &. If not can make some adjustments

You can always ask for an interim test. If the blood test is all you want, and you don't want or need a nurse/GP appointment, there is no harm in asking.

 

[Guzzler]

Ok, so I have a nasty suspicious mind. Thinking on this reluctance to release any more data and the patent having run out.... is Big Pharma sitting on the information so that there would be doubt enough proved as to whether it was Big Pharmas statin or the generic statin that has caused any possible harm/death?

Many a victim of the Thalidomide tragedy have said 'They are just waiting for us to die'. Like I said, it may be that I have overthunk stuff...