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surely there not all myths about high fats

izzzi

izzzi

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,207
Location
northants
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
Our Doctors are not wrong. I know some of us have had a bad experience,however the majority are looking after our health.

I know we all must take care of our diabetes,however we must insure we look after the rest of our bodies.
So please ensure you know all the facts before you choose what you eat.
I also know that the LCHF diet has proven to work well for some. just make sure you know the true facts regarding high fat intake long term.

Hear are a few so called myths that I think may be true.

Analysis of Health Problems Associated with High-Protein, High-Fat, Carbohydrate-Restricted Diets Reported via an Online Registry | Physicians Committee

Cardiovascular disease risk factors - Diet | World Heart Federation

high fat diet like Atkins or LCHF increases the risk of the most common form of breast cancer by more than a fifth,

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...-common-type-breast-cancer.html#ixzz3J885MhN7

A Prospective Study of Dietary Fat and Risk of Prostate Cancer
 
your link says high protein, I don't think anyone here is suggesting high protein and it's a self reporting survey without any substance
http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/extras/low carb/Restricting carbs as first approach to treating T2 Diabetes Feinman et al.pdf

American diabetic association ( http://www.professional.diabetes.org/)
http://www.professional.diabetes.org/admin/UserFiles/0 - Sean/dc132042 FINAL.pdf

Evidence is inconclusive for an ideal amount of total fat intake for people with diabetes;
therefore, goals should be individualized; fat quality appears to be far more important
than quantity.
In people with type 2 diabetes, a Mediterranean-style, MUFA-rich eating pattern may benefit
glycemic control and CVD risk factors and can therefore be recommended as an effective
alternative to a lower-fat, higher-carbohydrate eating pattern.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
jack412 said:
your link says high protein, I don't think anyone here is suggesting high protein and it's a self reporting survey without any substance
http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/extras/low carb/Restricting carbs as first approach to treating T2 Diabetes Feinman et al.pdf

American diabetic association ( http://www.professional.diabetes.org/)
http://www.professional.diabetes.org/admin/UserFiles/0 - Sean/dc132042 FINAL.pdf

Evidence is inconclusive for an ideal amount of total fat intake for people with diabetes;
therefore, goals should be individualized; fat quality appears to be far more important
than quantity.
In people with type 2 diabetes, a Mediterranean-style, MUFA-rich eating pattern may benefit
glycemic control and CVD risk factors and can therefore be recommended as an effective
alternative to a lower-fat, higher-carbohydrate eating pattern.
Click to expand...
I agree with you .
Low-Carb, High-Protein Diets: Risks (Ketosis) and Benefits
I am referring to the risk concerning High Fat intake.
 
zand said:
Hi izzzi. I've just posted a video about this very subject if you are interested

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/an-interesting-low-carb-video.67446/

I'll have a look at your links this evening when I have more time. Thanks for those
Click to expand...
Thanks @zand One of my reasons for my actions is because of people getting confused with high fat.
I know how much you like forums etc; I hope you take my wooden spoon in good spirit as the last thing I would wish,is to upset you.
I am going to now watch your video thanks,:)
 
High protein/fat?
It depends upon how high a fat intake you actually have, unless it's very high fat , if its also low carb then it will necessarily be quite high protein.
The French had a detailed investigation into a wide variety of various diets a couple of years ago.
The highest fat diet they considered was first stage Atkins* (and the Cohen diet )
First stage Atkins was 59% fat content with 35% from protein . This is slightly less fat than the PRCM document linked to by Izzzi but the protein is still considered high.
For women they suggested that it amounted to more than 2g/kg of weight (ie normal weight) They term the regime as High fat, high protein, low carbohydrate. ( the French home grown low carb diet, Dukan is much higher in Protein at 53% for women in stage 1, they really don't like that one ) The French nutritional guideline say 0.83g/kg .for protein
I won't go into the whole paper it's very long and detailed and evaluates many weight reduction diets, mostly unfavourably.

In the summary report there are two tables, one for women, one for men that are probably easy enough to understand. They include info on the vitamin and mineral contents . Atkins covers the first three lines of the grid. If someone is eating this type of pattern then it might be worth looking at where there may be too little (or too much) and look for foods that can 'plug' the gap.
The pink highlight is for deficiencies and the yellow one for where there is a higher than the normally recommended amount. Red writing for sodium stands for more than 5g
Inca is what French population actually eat according to national surveys
ANC are French guideline amounts
BMN are average nutritional requirements
(so French women on average eat 39% fat and the guidelines say 35-40% )
http://www.afssa.fr/Documents/NUT2009sa0099.pdf
*This is the paper from which the French derived the proportions and nutrients of the Atkins diet . It has a couple of sample menus that presumably they used for analysis.
http://www.colorado.edu/intphys/Class/IPHY3700_Greene/pdfs/atkins/freedman.pdf


If you do read French or want to use Google translate their is a section in the full report specifically on low carb diets P 52. with lots of references to studies , mostly in English.
There are also lots of graphs and diagrams comparing the various diets visually. This is a very long PDF.
http://www.afssa.fr/Documents/NUT2009sa0099.pdf
 
Well the LCHF diet has got my weight down along with my sugar levels and cholestral levels .. But I do not do high protein.. I am a vegetarian.. So have lots of plant based foods along with dairy .. I would say I am quite low in protein.. But have masses of energy now.
I became very ill when I followed my DBN eating advice called the eat well plate .. It made me put more weight on and my sugar went through the roof! So I know what works for me
 
phoenix said:
High protein/fat?
It depends upon how high a fat intake you actually have, unless it's very high fat , if its also low carb then it will necessarily be quite high protein.
The French had a detailed investigation into a wide variety of various diets a couple of years ago.
The highest fat diet they considered was first stage Atkins* (and the Cohen diet )
First stage Atkins was 59% fat content with 35% from protein . This is slightly less fat than the PRCM document linked to by Izzzi but the protein is still considered high.
For women they suggested that it amounted to more than 2g/kg of weight (ie normal weight) They term the regime as High fat, high protein, low carbohydrate. ( the French home grown low carb diet, Dukan is much higher in Protein at 53% for women in stage 1, they really don't like that one ) The French nutritional guideline say 0.83g/kg .for protein
I won't go into the whole paper it's very long and detailed and evaluates many weight reduction diets, mostly unfavourably.

In the summary report there are two tables, one for women, one for men that are probably easy enough to understand. They include info on the vitamin and mineral contents . Atkins covers the first three lines of the grid. If someone is eating this type of pattern then it might be worth looking at where there may be too little (or too much) and look for foods that can 'plug' the gap.
The pink highlight is for deficiencies and the yellow one for where there is a higher than the normally recommended amount. Red writing for sodium stands for more than 5g
Inca is what French population actually eat according to national surveys
ANC are French guideline amounts
BMN are average nutritional requirements
(so French women on average eat 39% fat and the guidelines say 35-40% )
http://www.afssa.fr/Documents/NUT2009sa0099.pdf
*This is the paper from which the French derived the proportions and nutrients of the Atkins diet . It has a couple of sample menus that presumably they used for analysis.
http://www.colorado.edu/intphys/Class/IPHY3700_Greene/pdfs/atkins/freedman.pdf


If you do read French or want to use Google translate their is a section in the full report specifically on low carb diets P 52. with lots of references to studies , mostly in English.
There are also lots of graphs and diagrams comparing the various diets visually. This is a very long PDF.
http://www.afssa.fr/Documents/NUT2009sa0099.pdf
Click to expand...
@phoenix That is brilliant, Easy to understand and the "Evidence Statement" blocks, summarized low, moderate and high fats quite easily.
I hope you can see where I coming from, with regard to my issue with High Fat.
 
Enclave said:
Well the LCHF diet has got my weight down along with my sugar levels and cholestral levels .. But I do not do high protein.. I am a vegetarian.. So have lots of plant based foods along with dairy .. I would say I am quite low in protein.. But have masses of energy now.
I became very ill when I followed my DBN eating advice called the eat well plate .. It made me put more weight on and my sugar went through the roof! So I know what works for me
Click to expand...
@Enclave I think your LCHF diet is a success for 3 reasons. Control, Vegetarian and Moderate Fat. intake.
I agree I could be wrong, using moderate fat as a definition of high fat. It is just a preferred message to give others.
 
izzzi said:
@Enclave I think your LCHF diet is a success for 3 reasons. Control, Vegetarian and Moderate Fat. intake.
I agree I could be wrong, using moderate fat as a definition of high fat. It is just a preferred message to give others.
Click to expand...
I just changed all my low fat intake to the high or normal fat versions. I don't count my fats only my carbs
 
I don't want to get into a long or scientific post here, but just want to say a couple of things.

Firstly, one man's high fat is another's moderate. How are you defining hight fat? (No, I haven't gone to your links.)

Secondly, the few words I did read talked about; ".............Research makes it clear that abnormal blood lipid (fat) levels have a strong correlation with the risk of coronary artery disease, heart attack and coronary death. In turn, abnormal blood lipids are related to what you eat. ............." Similarly, the use of abnormal is very subjective.

That's it. :)
 
@izzzi
I suspect you are looking at the last paper in English. I actually only gave that for where the macronutrient breakdowns come from on the French research rather than anything else.
That particular paper is quite old and doesn't necessarily fully reflect recent research , for example the large recent study on the Med diet (and also the Cretan diet that did well in the Seven Countries study was 40% fat)
What the paper seems to favour and calls a moderate fat diet at 25% is quite low rather than moderate. (it's actually 10% lower than the French lower guideline amount and 5% less than the UK guidelines)

I think that the paper gives some indications as to why a low carb diet can work for weight loss. There is also no doubt that if someone is over weight and loses that weight then they also tend to reduce insulin resistance and reduce risk factors for other diseases.
But it's also true that other diets show success including ones which restrict fat to tiny amounts such as the Ornish diet . There is research to confirm this . You also just have to go away from these forums to say the Mcdougall forums or vegan websites or do some of the Coursera nutritional courses and read the forums there, you find these types of diets also have extremely fervent advocates with their own accounts to tell.
On the other hand, if you look at nutrional analysis (including the paper we are talking about), then these very low fat diets can also have their nutritional deficiencies .

Personally, I feel that the type of fats in a diet are important and I worry that a very high fat diet means that there is no room for a full complement of nutrients .(including fibre)
(Im sticking in the middle with the Med!)
 
AndBreathe said:
I don't want to get into a long or scientific post here, but just want to say a couple of things.

Firstly, one man's high fat is another's moderate. How are you defining hight fat? (No, I haven't gone to your links.)

Secondly, the few words I did read talked about; ".............Research makes it clear that abnormal blood lipid (fat) levels have a strong correlation with the risk of coronary artery disease, heart attack and coronary death. In turn, abnormal blood lipids are related to what you eat. ............." Similarly, the use of abnormal is very subjective.

That's it. :)
Click to expand...
I am defining high fat as excessive greed for fatty foods. However "high fat" is "high fat"
I am sure you are aware of atherosclerosis with regard to (LDL)

No need for you to go to my links as you will know all the information.
Must be fair @phoenix links are good. ( the English ones )
 
phoenix said:
@izzzi
I suspect you are looking at the last paper in English. I actually only gave that for where the macronutrient breakdowns come from on the French research rather than anything else.
That particular paper is quite old and doesn't necessarily fully reflect recent research , for example the large recent study on the Med diet (and also the Cretan diet that did well in the Seven Countries study was 40% fat)
What the paper seems to favour and calls a moderate fat diet at 25% is quite low rather than moderate. (it's actually 10% lower than the French lower guideline amount and 5% less than the UK guidelines)

I think that the paper gives some indications as to why a low carb diet can work for weight loss. There is also no doubt that if someone is over weight and loses that weight then they also tend to reduce insulin resistance and reduce risk factors for other diseases.
But it's also true that other diets show success including ones which restrict fat to tiny amounts such as the Ornish diet . There is research to confirm this . You also just have to go away from these forums to say the Mcdougall forums or vegan websites or do some of the Coursera nutritional courses and read the forums there, you find these types of diets also have extremely fervent advocates with their own accounts to tell.
On the other hand, if you look at nutrional analysis (including the paper we are talking about), then these very low fat diets can also have their nutritional deficiencies .

Personally, I feel that the type of fats in a diet are important and I worry that a very high fat diet means that there is no room for a full complement of nutrients .(including fibre)
(Im sticking in the middle with the Med!)
Click to expand...
Oddly enough I am on a vegan type diet, low carb etc; I could not say high fat ,yet I have my fair share of fat.
The reason I get concerned about HF on the forum is quite simple.
My Doctor recommended this forum, so when I mentioned LCHF to her and how some doctors were wrong regarding Diabetes, she thought how odd.
She said that diet does work for a few, but not me, also high fat can also be misunderstood which could be dangerous for many.
I am off to page 72 now, wish me luck.
 
izzzi said:
I am defining high fat as excessive greed for fatty foods. However "high fat" is "high fat"
I am sure you are aware of atherosclerosis with regard to (LDL)

No need for you to go to my links as you will know all the information.
Must be fair @phoenix links are good. ( the English ones )
Click to expand...

One mans "excessive greed" is another's.............

Have you watched the Professor Sikaris presentation on blood tests for cv health?
It's a decent watch.
 
At the other end of the scale, I'm eating a relatively high protein, higher fat, low carb diet. I've lost nearly two stone in 10 weeks, my blood sugars are better than ever and it looks like I may be about to get my best Hba1c for a long time. I'll also find out about my blood lipids at that time.

What everyone needs to remember is that a GP is not an expert on diet and has a set of guidelines from their national health authority that leads them to a certain direction, backed with a set of evidence, some (often much) of which is outdated.

So while your doctor is surprised, it is unlikely that she has done the research into diet that many on the forum have in order to draw their conclusions.
I'm not saying she is wrong, but she may not have as much evidence to hand as many people think. GPs don't have in depth knowledge of everything!
 
izzzi said:
I am defining high fat as excessive greed for fatty foods. However "high fat" is "high fat"
I am sure you are aware of atherosclerosis with regard to (LDL)

No need for you to go to my links as you will know all the information.
Must be fair @phoenix links are good. ( the English ones )
Click to expand...


"Excessive greed"

Not a phrase I would expect to read on a support forum, to be honest. Disappointed.
 
Avocado Sevenfold said:
"Excessive greed"

Not a phrase I would expect to read on a support forum, to be honest. Disappointed.
Click to expand...
Before I new what LCHF was. that phrase was I thought High Fat was all about.
It was not meant to be offensive , just a honest answer to the question.
These days it is hard sometimes to ensure one uses the correct words that don't offend. sorry.
I am sure on this forum some of us thought the word Fat was offensive.
 
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