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T1D, protein intake, low carb and ketosis

Discussion in 'Ketogenic diet forum' started by kitedoc, Apr 2, 2019.

  1. kitedoc

    kitedoc Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Mel,
    The mind sharpening is awesome. I cut back my antidepressants (with the psychiatrist's blessing)!! But keeping BSLs even with further attention to protein and upping fat has not helped me return to the magical low insulin days of the 6 week mark. I am dosing for 50% protein, otherwise my BSLs would be too high. Perhaps time to readdress the protein amounts, keep going with the probiotics and added magnesium and see what happens - plus keep hydrated.
    The rare cases of euglycaemic DKA I read about featured dehydration as a factor.
     
  2. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    @kitedoc
    Might be worth you joining the T1 grit facebook group as I'm sure they are far more clued up on your questions than me?
     
  3. Jim Lahey

    Jim Lahey I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Interestingly I’m almost always rolling 3-4mmol/L for ketone bodies but that’s with around 70g of protein.
     
  4. kitedoc

    kitedoc Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Thank you @bulkbiker, So if you counted 50% of your protein as carbs, the carb count on this basis would be 72 g.
    And one would wonder whether the insulin your body produces to deal with that would prevent ketosis?
    So the 50% protein formula is an approximation, dependent maybe on insulin levels and gluconeogenesis.
    May being T1D and/or a variation in the myriad factors making my particular or peculiar liver make more glucose than someone else is at work here??
    I have felt better since taking magnesium supplements and am trying a probiotic to see if that will improve my insulin sensitivity.
    Mel is not eating meat or dairy (due to allergies) and only increases the carb count for things like eating white fish and can stay in ketosis may be the type of protein plays a part in the explanation??
     
  5. kitedoc

    kitedoc Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, that is a great idea. I shall report back !!
     
  6. Bluetit1802

    Bluetit1802 Type 2 (in remission!) · Guru

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    I don't understand why a T1 needs to bolus for protein. (although some on here report that they do). Protein takes ages and ages to digest and any percentage that ends up as glucose won't appear in the bloodstream for many, many hours. It doesn't digest quickly like carbs do. If it has any effect it will be the following day most likely. Also, just because a percentage CAN convert to glucose, doesn't mean to say it WILL.

    http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2017/07/gluconeogenesis.html
     
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  7. kitedoc

    kitedoc Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Jim, I am begiing to think the 50% protien into carbs depends on ther type of protein. As Mel reports above, she cannot eat meat or dairy due to allergies but does not find she needs to count 50% of things like egg protein as carbs, only things like white fish.
    It may also be that my liver is more prone to gluconeogenesis than others.
    As Bulkbiker suggests I should ask the True Grit Type 1 forum and see what they suggest - and report back !!
     
  8. Jim Lahey

    Jim Lahey I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Yeah this is all kinds of voodoo, really. As a T2 I have a functioning pancreas so my only experience with protein is relative to measurable results in the context of insulin sensitivity. That is to say that I cannot measure how much insulin my pancreas is secreting in order to cover any glucose response from protein, only whether or not it’s working. You T1 have to cover everything by injection, so your measurable responses are going to differ to those of a T2. In other words I will shut up. @bulkbiker ’s suggestion is a good idea. You definitely need wisdom from more very experienced T1 keto people.
     
    #28 Jim Lahey, Apr 2, 2019 at 2:30 PM
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2019
  9. kitedoc

    kitedoc Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. Dr Bernstein suggests 50% of protein be counted as carbs where the protein intake is adequate (about 0.8 g/kg body weight per day). There have been studies showing the glucose from converted protein appearing in bloodstream from 45 minutes after a meal with a gradual low peak around the 3 hours mark. I am guessing this is happening because some parts of protein are not essential to repair work, other body systems and metabolism but serve this useful function when carbs are scarce!!
    I appreciate there are a lot of variables at work here, including whether my liver makes more glucose than others or is less easily suppressed by insulin.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
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  10. kitedoc

    kitedoc Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Jim, I really appreciate your input!! Comparisons between us can help understanding - and at the moment the confusing elements of all this remain -but learning is about clearing up the confusion - so I shall report back with whatever I can find out !! My thanks again !!
     
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  11. kitedoc

    kitedoc Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Thank you a good point. I shall look up his book. I know he emphasises protein over fat intake.
     
  12. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Moderator
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    Hi @kitedoc

    I suggest you have a good google around the Insulin Index of various foods - including the proteins.
    You will see that different types of protein (beef or white fish, chicken or pork, hard cheese or tofu) have different places on the insulin index charts.

    Therefore, the choice of type of protein carries a different insulin requirement, and this is possibly where @Mel dCP 's insulin requirements differ from your need to allow for 50% of protein.

    I imagine that by selecting proteins with lower places on the Insulin Index, you could reduce your insulin requirements - but it would be a very trial-and-error personal thing, with lots of testing involved.

    In the past, I have seen a magnificent chart showing the Insulin Index of nearly every food known to man, all sub divided into food groups for easy comparison. But I am afraid I didn't keep the link. The link I will include below is a v basic one, and I haven't looked at the site in depth to see if it is a good one.
    https://optimisingnutrition.com/2015/03/30/food_insulin_index/
    But it should give you an idea of what I am talking about.
     
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  13. Bluetit1802

    Bluetit1802 Type 2 (in remission!) · Guru

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    • Informative Informative x 1
  14. LooperCat

    LooperCat Type 1 · Expert

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    Just tucking into a bowl of chopped avocado, 150g king prawns and mayonnaise. The meal contains 6g carbs, so have dosed for that at my usual 1:10 ratio ie 0.6u. The prawns contain 15g protein, so I have added 0.75u over four hours to account for those. If I don’t dose for them I get a stubborn, slow rise over the subsequent hours after eating.

    T1s only need to dose for protein in the absence of carbs, as the usual large doses that accompany a carby meal mask the rise.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  15. RAPS_od

    RAPS_od Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    You might find some answers in this book:
    [​IMG]
    It's available on Amazon.
     
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  16. StewartH

    StewartH Type 1 · Active Member

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    Bulkbiker, great numbers! What do you test for ketones with?
    Kitedoc, I have been VLC for over 3 years now. I do notice an insulin load if I eat a good portion of protein, especially chicken. Have not noticed this so much with fish or red meats though. No idea why.
     
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  17. JAT1

    JAT1 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Certain proteins don't seem to affect my blood sugar, such as cheese (thank Goodness there's something I can stuff myself on), also bacon, roasted chicken legs and pork shoulder. I think it's because of the amount of fat going down at the same time as the protein. Whereas lean meats will raise my BS.
     
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  18. kitedoc

    kitedoc Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Thank you @Brunneria, I had forgotten about insulin index. From refreshed memory it is from the same mob who developed the glycaemic index and glycaemic load at Sydney Uni. I shall look it up and send you a link in return. Instead of glucose as the comparator in the GI/GL I think they use white bread (of all things)!!
     
  19. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    I have a blood ketone/glucose meter.. On Call GK Dual which I use for ketones (strips too pricey for glucose!).
    https://www.valuemed.co.uk/collecti...n-you-buy-50-on-call-blood-ketone-strips-here
     
  20. Rustytypin

    Rustytypin Prediabetes · Well-Known Member

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    I also use an On Call Dual for testing ketones and also occasionally for testing BG as a comparison to my other meters. It seems to compare well but it has a high strip failure rate - about one in five. It will take up blood and start counting down, then gives an error code indicating not enough blood. Is it just me or is this commonplace with this meter? I don’t have the problem with the other meters. Sorry if this is hijacking the thread.
     
    #40 Rustytypin, Apr 3, 2019 at 9:35 AM
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2019
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