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Tannith's views on reversing T2

Discussion in 'Type 2 Diabetes' started by Tannith, Apr 17, 2021.

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  1. Tannith

    Tannith · Well-Known Member

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    Mod Edit:
    This and several of the subsequent posts have been moved to a new thread to avoid derailing that thread:

    Tannith said:
    The replies on this (the original) thread really sadden me. So many people for whom low carb isn't working but many of whom have passed the window of opportunity for doing weight loss instead. I am pretty frightened of being in that position myself, and being unable to reverse my T2 because I dropped the weight loss diet too soon. By the time I re started it I had been over 4 years T2, possibly more. After 4 years it gets much more difficult to reverse T2 as the beta cells get more and more damaged over time and often can't be revived. Until last week, when my OGT results improved in a bit of a jump, I had become really terrified that I would be stuck with T2 for life, and was getting depressed by it. I couldn't face having no option but to try either low carb or drugs, neither of which offer anything more than remission at best, rather than complete reversal. And for many, including some of those posting on here, low carb doesn't work for them. By the time you have had T2 for 10 years your chances of reversal by weight loss have reduced to 50/50. That's why I think it is so very important to try weight loss first, as doing low carb early on can waste precious time, and cost you your window of opportunity for a diet that is capable of reversing T2 rather than simply putting it into remission by lowering your HBA1C. You have the rest of your life to try low carb as there is no time limit on it.
     
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    #1 Tannith, Apr 17, 2021 at 11:38 PM
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 18, 2021
  2. HSSS

    HSSS Type 2 · Expert

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    @Tannith You specifically separate reversal and remission. You partially define remission as lower hb1ac. Could you clarify what, to you, the two terms mean please? Most definitions use the terms interchangeably to mean non diabetic blood glucose levels/hb1ac, usually on no medication sustained for a period of time. You seem to use them otherwise.
     
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  3. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Expert

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    Its interesting that some of us cant lose the weight, no matter what we do or how hard we try, yet our blood glucose levels have reduced considerably and we are so much healthier in other ways. Weight is not the barrier, for some of us, to controlling our type 2 diabetes. I find this heartening.
     
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  4. woollygal

    woollygal Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I have to say I do find your posts very doom mongering and quite stressful to read.

    in all honesty it was the weight loss regimes that made me diabetic. Now I’m not following low fat low cal my numbers have reduced.

    please can you stop with all this deadlines or you are doomed stuff. You have no reason or science to back this so please can you stop writing things that may not be true.

    I fir one and exhausted and can’t read anymore about how diabetes will kill you.
    It may work for you that way but please consider how what you are writing may affect others.
    I no longer read the news anymore due to all the doom mongering please don’t make this forum a place I have to avoid just in case I come across someone who is saying the same stuff.

    the fact low carbing works for the majority means it’s a good thing. The science backs it.
     
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  5. Goonergal

    Goonergal Type 2 · Moderator
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    Why do you assume that the two are mutually exclusive? Surely weight loss is weight loss? And if weight is not lost but blood sugars resolve/improve, is that not success?

    I don’t see any sadness in what other posters have said in this thread, rather, people who have made educated choices and are managing their diabetes in ways which work for them. Why do you feel the need to feel sad for them? I think you are in severe danger of suggesting that your way and your definitions of ‘working’ or ‘success’ are the only ones. That’s not what this forum is about.
     
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  6. Daphne917

    Daphne917 Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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    @Tannith as many on this forum have proved it’s not necessarily weight loss that reduces Hba1c but reduced carb intake which, in a number of people, leads to weight loss. However there are some members here, me included, who successfully maintain a non diabetic Hba1c despite not losing much weight. Apologies if you’ve already stated it but what is your current hba1c as I thought it was already in the official non diabetic range?
     
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  7. Tannith

    Tannith · Well-Known Member

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    I was asked for my latest nhs HBA1C by someone on here , gave it and @Jim Lahey very kindly gave me the heads up that it was poor. In the pre diabetic range in most scales and actually in the diabetic range in one. I immediately, that same day, re started my weight loss diet and sent for home OGT test ingredients. Though my FBG was then, I think, at the upper end of normal, my OGT test results were abysmal. Actually well into the diabetic range!!! I base my decisions on the results of all 3 accessible tests as they show slightly different aspects of BG. To me, the OGT is the most important one as it shows how well the beta cells are processing a set amount of glucose. Which is what you need to know if, like me, it is reversal of T2 you are aiming for,rather than just remission of high blood sugars. And also it is in the present –today’s results- not up to 3 months in the past, like the HBA1C. Current results are what I need at the moment, as once they are in about the middle of the normoglycaemic range (in all 3 tests) I shall feel safe enough to stop my weight loss diet. I have no problem with doing the HBA1C later as it is a useful long term measure of average BG, but it’s not urgent for me. Which is just as well as I can’t get one during Covid anyway.
     
  8. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Expert

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    I am sorry you feel sad. I suggest you look at posts from us long time low carvers. Read of our years of successfully managing our diabetes, some by diet alone, and see how happy we are.

    Then have a good look at those on various meds who are also living life well alongside medication. After all, many people have daily medication for various reasons.

    It may give you a more realistic and balanced view of living well with diabetes.
     
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  9. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Expert

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    We don't read all the threads and posts on the forum. There isn't time.

    Was your Hba1c 39 and when was this taken? I seem to remember that as your figure.

    I also remember @Jim Lahey explaining your confusion about what a Hba1c is. Hba1c is an average over a three month period.

    Surgeries are still doing tests and checkups. Have you asked for another Hba1c test since your first one?
     
  10. Goonergal

    Goonergal Type 2 · Moderator
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    You keep saying this. However, what Jim gave you was his opinion, nothing more, nothing less: https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/th...-treating-diabetes.178134/page-5#post-2335871

    In that post there is no mention of ‘different scales’, however there is discussion within that thread of the differences between HbA1c, fasting blood glucose numbers and average blood glucose readings. It seems that somewhere along the way these two points have become conflated in your mind and the repetition of this information as though it were fact is not aiding this discussion.
     
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  11. Antje77

    Antje77 LADA · Moderator
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    If you click on the name of a member who makes you feel uncomfortable, you'll find an 'ignore' button. It's also on the top right on profile pages.
    It doesn't work for Moderators, but it can be a very useful button :)

    upload_2021-4-18_12-57-12.png
     
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  12. HSSS

    HSSS Type 2 · Expert

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    Which charts show 39 as prediabetic? As far as I can find that is the first point for the USA but cannot find any others.

    Which scale shows it as diabetic? I cannot find any.

    Have you actually tried to get an hb1ac? I’ve had my usual quarterly ones and many on here have been able to get theirs?

    edit could you also see post #2.re definitions of remission and reversal

    I feel understanding the sources of your opinions might shed light for the rest of us.
     
    #12 HSSS, Apr 18, 2021 at 1:39 PM
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2021
  13. HSSS

    HSSS Type 2 · Expert

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    Low carb usually does mean weight loss. The two are not mutually exclusive. And very low calorie might very well be low carb in terms of total carbs eaten just because so little food is eaten.

    There is no one prescribed way to lose weight on the Newcastle regime. It is the loss not the method that is relevant to the theory. Not every case will be reversed by weight loss alone. The time limit is a hypothesis only. Even Prof Taylor says these things quite clearly.

    There is value for some in a low calorie method. There is also value in the low carb method. Presenting one specific way as the only option is misleading.

    Out of interest since you have seen improvement, how many carbs a day are you eating on your restricted calorie diet? How many were you eating for the last few years prior to recent improvements?
     
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    #13 HSSS, Apr 18, 2021 at 1:42 PM
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2021
  14. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Expert

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    @Tannith when was your last Hba1c done?
     
  15. Bluetit1802

    Bluetit1802 Type 2 (in remission!) · Legend

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    @Tannith you seem to pay a lot of attention to weight loss, and have re-started a low cal weight loss exercise. Can you tell us if you are in the over weight range, the obese range, or normal range? How much weight do you hope to lose? It is perfectly possible to lose weight on a diet of low carb combined with low calories. It is what I did. I counted both initially and dropped from a BMI of 31 to a BMI of 21 in 9 or 10 months as well as reducing my blood glucose levels.
     
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  16. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    Here is a somewhat enlightening article that I feel gives a stable and balanced discussion on this topic.
    https://www.diabetesselfmanagement.com/about-diabetes/types-of-diabetes/reversing-type-2-diabetes/

    For most of my life, I was told that diabetes is a lifelong progressive chronic condition that leads to death and complications that cannot be avoided. It was stated to be irreversible but could be slowed down by medication and lifestyle changes. This was the mantra declared as FACT by NICE, the NHS, ADA et al. The scientists, the experts, the Consultants the GP all chanted this, and it was what was facing me when I signed up as a fully paid-up member of the Club.

    As pointed out in this thread and in the article I post above, this is not necessarily the pathway that we will follow, and there is evidence that the symptoms of T2 diabetes can be reversed.

    BUT it would seem from posts in this forum and elsewhere that it is not a guaranteed ticket out of the morass, and that going back to 'Normal' ways of eating will probably bring it back. So the 'reversal' is not permanent and is, therefore, neither Remission nor any other similar term like Cure, that would allow us to throw away the crutches.

    The sooner One accepts that at best we can get a better standard of living that reduces the risk of complications, the better, We win! But stop seeking the Holy Grail of Cure - that way is the thorny path to doom. Let others work to find the cure, and then we can grab it with both hands once it is shown to be valid. Currently, we are not there yet.
     
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  17. Tannith

    Tannith · Well-Known Member

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    As I said above "Current results are what I need at the moment, as once they are in about the middle of the normoglycaemic range (in all 3 tests) I shall feel safe enough to stop my weight loss diet." I shall hope to lose enough weight to put me in this normal range (middle) in all 3 tests. At present my OGT results, although they are improving, are still in the prediabetic range, so they need to come down before I can stop losing weight. But I can't actually know what that weight will be until I get there and find all 3 tests are mid normal range. FBGs are already OK and HBA1C I can't know until the pandemic is over. Not that it would help at the moment while the OGT is nowhere near yet, and all 3 have to be right to reverse T2 to normoglycaemic.
     
  18. HSSS

    HSSS Type 2 · Expert

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    I’m feeling like I’m in an echo chamber here. With none of my very legitimate questions being answered. Perhaps I’ve had “ignore” activated on me. :( In which case I’ll save my breath/typing fingertips.

    Perhaps a mod can tell me if a member is able to see they’ve been switched off or if it it silent and anonymous?
     
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  19. Goonergal

    Goonergal Type 2 · Moderator
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    There’s no way to tell whether someone has placed you on their ignore list.
     
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  20. zand

    zand Type 2 · Master

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    You aren't wasting your breath. It's important that lurkers and newbies and others can see as many different views as possible. For this reason It would also be good if @Tannith could answer your questions.:)
     
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