"46% of the intervention group had non-diabetic HbA1c off all antihyperglycaemic agents. The underlying changes in intra-organ fat remained constant in those achieving remission (Fig (Fig3).3). Remission primarily depended upon degree of weight loss, with achievement increasing steadily from (7%) with only 0–5 kg weight loss to 86% who lost 15 kg or more." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6399621/This is Diabetes UK (DUK i.e. the other lot) who funded the Newcastle Diet Paper and the research banging their own drum. They are postulating the cardiovascular improvement as a "possibility", i.e. not proven. It is assuming that the improvement of HDL from 1.1 to 1.3 mmol/l will do that magic, but this improvement is not that spectacular.
As has been pointed out there was only a 41% remission success, and it does not mention the regression that occurred in the 2nd year that followed the end of the trial. So, as mentioned in other posts here, it is only a partial success. I note the date it was published was 21/4/ 2021, i.e. today. I wonder why? This article seems to have no new data to present.
"46% of the intervention group had non-diabetic HbA1c off all antihyperglycaemic agents. The underlying changes in intra-organ fat remained constant in those achieving remission (Fig (Fig3).3). Remission primarily depended upon degree of weight loss, with achievement increasing steadily from (7%) with only 0–5 kg weight loss to 86% who lost 15 kg or more." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6399621/
As to those who regressed in 2nd year after the end of the trial, that was hardly surprising as they HAD PUT THE WEIGHT BACK ON, thus undoing all their good work and going back above their Personal Fat Thresholds. The diet had worked, but the dieters themselves failed.
It is their choice.
We don’t necessarily reply just for the benefit of the person we reply to. Often there are other readers who are new to the entire subject who are unaware of all sides of an argument and who could come away with a one sided view if points are not discussed/rebutted/explored. Particularly if the evidence is being seen in the round. It not being ONE persons choice is often the point being missed.It always was. Something the majority of the forum seems to have forgotten
Thank you SO much Ronancastled, that's SO encouraging!@Tannith I see you've really put all your faith in the Taylor PFT hypothesis and for some it does hold up.
I hope you're one of the lucky ones.
You do realise you may have already passed your PFT, might of happened very early after you commenced your ND.
For me I only had to shift a stone for my FBG to normalise, it took 3 weeks.
For my postpriandials to normalise well enough to pass an OGTT took 14 months.
For my first phase insulin response to kick back in took 18 months.
Also, none of this was a slow linear improvement, I'd go months at the same glucose level then boom, everything would drop another 0.5mmol/L without me doing anything special bar low carbing & waiting.
There are hundreds if not thousands of descriptions of people's experiences of Low Carb on here. But hardly any accounts of how people fared on low calorie diets similar to the Newcastle Diet. I found it difficult to find any recent or current ones when I first started mine. Someone else trying it might find support and encouragement in hearing the ups and downs of mine. And if I eventually succeed, they might, hopefully, put up with the downs when their OGTs are still poor because of the final prospect of reversing their T2 for good. A prize well worth working for!We don’t necessarily reply just for the benefit of the person we reply to. Often there are other readers who are new to the entire subject who are unaware of all sides of an argument and who could come away with a one sided view if points are not discussed/rebutted/explored. Particularly if the evidence is being seen in the round. It not being ONE persons choice is often the point being missed.
Seen this one?There are hundreds if not thousands of descriptions of people's experiences of Low Carb on here. But hardly any accounts of how people fared on low calorie diets similar to the Newcastle Diet. I found it difficult to find any recent or current ones when I first started mine. Someone else trying it might find support and encouragement in hearing the ups and downs of mine. And if I eventually succeed, they might, hopefully, put up with the downs when their OGTs are still poor because of the final prospect of reversing their T2 for good. A prize well worth working for!
I actually agree, probably much to your surprise. There’s a lot to be said for presenting and discussing all the options out there so people can make their own decisions based on the widest experiences and evidence possible. I can see that there is benefit to some using this method. I’ve never denied that, I just don’t agree with some of your assumptions based on it.There are hundreds if not thousands of descriptions of people's experiences of Low Carb on here. But hardly any accounts of how people fared on low calorie diets similar to the Newcastle Diet. I found it difficult to find any recent or current ones when I first started mine. Someone else trying it might find support and encouragement in hearing the ups and downs of mine. And if I eventually succeed, they might, hopefully, put up with the downs when their OGTs are still poor because of the final prospect of reversing their T2 for good. A prize well worth working for!
There are hundreds if not thousands of descriptions of people's experiences of Low Carb on here. But hardly any accounts of how people fared on low calorie diets similar to the Newcastle Diet. I found it difficult to find any recent or current ones when I first started mine. Someone else trying it might find support and encouragement in hearing the ups and downs of mine. And if I eventually succeed, they might, hopefully, put up with the downs when their OGTs are still poor because of the final prospect of reversing their T2 for good. A prize well worth working for!
My own account of very low calorie dieting is out there.There are hundreds if not thousands of descriptions of people's experiences of Low Carb on here. But hardly any accounts of how people fared on low calorie diets similar to the Newcastle Diet. I found it difficult to find any recent or current ones when I first started mine. Someone else trying it might find support and encouragement in hearing the ups and downs of mine. And if I eventually succeed, they might, hopefully, put up with the downs when their OGTs are still poor because of the final prospect of reversing their T2 for good. A prize well worth working for!
Oh dear. I was hoping people would have forgotten.Thank you @Pipp that is a good post that really says it all. I am a Low Carber myself, but I am happy to recommend the ND diet if it suits the situation. I have done this on occasions, but I feel it is necessary to emphasise that it is best as a short sharp shock a bit like pressing the reset button on the computer and not advised as a lifestyle intervention like LCHF is. I remember your evangelical phase.......
You have come out of the experience with a well-balabnced viewpoint on what happened on your journey, and I learned things from it too. It is never wasted.Oh dear. I was hoping people would have forgotten.
One thing I do seem to seem to have learnt is that it is best to keep an open mind. Sharing knowledge and the experience of others, and then applying that knowledge to ones own individual circumstances, then sharing it back can only increase our understanding. True learning is never static.
I have done this on occasions, but I feel it is necessary to emphasise that it is best as a short sharp shock a bit like pressing the reset button on the computer and not advised as a lifestyle intervention like LCHF is.....
"It appears you have been triggered by a comment from a member, regarding your HbA1c. One member, offering an opinion, that seems to have been misconstrued. Yet lots more members are offering other opinions, supported by research papers, and personal experience, that you choose to ignore. I don’t understand."My own account of very low calorie dieting is out there.
I embarked on it ten years ago, in desperation, because I just could not lose weight, had been diagnosed T2 6 years previously, and done everything, I mean stuck rigidly to the advice I had been given by NHS, including the specialist weight management team. That team was made up of doctors, physiotherapists, dietitians, psychologists. I took part in hydrotherapy sessions, gym exercise sessions, nutrition classes, behavioural therapy, and followed the advice rigidly. Over 2 years no improvement in HbA1c, which did in fact increase. No weight loss,other than a couple of pounds. I was being told that the only solution available to me was bariatric surgery. Although I don’t decry that option for those who choose that route, to me it felt like an assault, and emphasised I was not in control of my own health. At this time I read reports of the Newcastle studies, and insisted I wanted to try that route. It was the hypothesis in those early days of the Newcastle research that the restricted diet that is undertaken post bariatric surgery could be as successful in ‘reversing’ T2 as the surgical route, but without the surgery that attracted my attention. To me it was a lifeline. I had not, then,heard of low carbing. The only other options I was aware of were bariatric surgery, or the low fat ‘healthy’ carbs with every meal regime that was being touted by the multi-disciplinary team. Due to my desperation, I now understand that I was ‘blinkered’, in that I did not diligently research further than the ND. In mitigation that was a very stressful time in my life, and I was quite ill, too, with several other health problems.
The Taylor personal fat threshold theory, does seem to fit what happened to me. Within days of starting the Very Low Calorie Diet, my blood glucose levels returned to non-diabetes levels, and stayed there, several years. Suggests support for the theory that the visceral fat is first to be lost. I lost a great deal of weight within a few months, but it was those first few days that were most significant for me. The weight management team, to my satisfaction, could hardly believe that I had succeeded without their help. A year or two later I needed abdominal surgeries for a different condition. post surgery I had a conversation with the surgeon. He told me that although I still had some considerable subcutaneous fat, he had found very little visceral fat.
Of course, following this I was euphoric. I had achieved what the (current at that time) knowledge had said was impossible. After all I was supposed to have the chronic, incurable, progressive T2! I cringe now when I think how evangelical I became about how easy it was. Don’t get me wrong, unlike some, I do see a value in Very LowCalorie Diets , with the caveat that it has limitations, and is not the appropriate method for everyone.; it is not a ‘one off cure’; it has been over-hyped in the media; the definition of ‘reversal’, is a loose one, as it defines HbA1c 48, (usually accepted as highest level prediabetic) as reversal. Despite this, for some people with a lot of weight to lose, and like me had struggled, it can offer a lifeline. Though they need to know and understand that the calorie restriction phase is just a very small timescale in the rest of life management that has to follow.
What I do have great concern about, @Tannith, is that from reading your posts, and the responses, you are taking a perfectionist approach, and, have gone to extremes with an obsession about needing to have HbA1c of less than 39, and really low fasting levels. Also, the obsession with frequent OGT tests. The amount of glucose, and the need to consume higher levels of carbs for the few days before could cause erratic increase in BG levels, and the damage on a micro vascular level that you are trying to avoid. Also, I am concerned about your emotional health, too. It appears you have been triggered by a comment from a member, regarding your HbA1c. One member, offering an opinion, that seems to have been misconstrued. Yet lots more members are offering other opinions, supported by research papers, and personal experience, that you choose to ignore. I don’t understand.
@Tannith, please don’t feel you are being ‘got at’. I do admire your tenacity, and determination to follow your chosen path, however misguided many think that is. I also see there are some metits to ND methodology, in the right circumstances. Another big concern I do have is that you are promoting what you suggest are Professor Taylor’s methods, when what you are doing is not that at all. Very misleading, and confusing for people new to T 2 and looking for ways to improve their health.
I am not sure of your age, Tannith, and background, but perhaps as a retired , contented with my lot, type of gal it is easier for me to accept that good enough is good enough. I know that I will die one day. Meantime,I want to do some living, so if I can keep HbA1c on an even keel, (if it stays under 45 that will do, though prefer under 42) and don’t see too high numbers fasting, or post prandial, or have any retinopathy or neuropathy complications, then life is sweet, and there is no need to strive for the perfection that is never going to be attainable. I really wish the same for you.
Are you open to the ideas that:Prof Taylor has repeatedly said that it is the WEIGHT LOSS that matters and that ANY DIET that achieves weight loss will do WILL DO.
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