Type 2 The China Study V LCHF

[Flora123]

I wasn’t sure where to put this question as it’s a nutrition question but I want thoughts from anyone.
I have a couple of friends who are newly turned vegans. They have been preaching about the China Study to me and how my choice to eat meat again (was veg for years) is so so bad for me. I must admit that any research I’ve done in the past is very convincing but so is my research on LCHF. For every piece of convincing evidence there is out there, there is another saying the opposite.

They preach about how we need carbs for mental health etc etc and how it’s been proven that fat is bad for the heart yet when I’ve shown articles about the opposite, I’m just told it wasn’t based on science and you can’t argue with a huge study (China Study). Sigh

I haven’t told anyone I have diabetes as I just can’t cope with being lectured, particularly by people that are ill informed. I wanted to tell them that I can’t eat carbs, I have little choice and why but stopped myself and just smiled as the lecturing continued. I’m sure I’d just be told I can but trust me, every time I go above20g per day it’s a disaster for my BG.

Anyway, any thoughts on how right the China Study might be? I’m just going round and round in circles with what is right. Ahhh.

 

[bulkbiker]

This is one fairly strong critique of it...

https://deniseminger.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/

 

[Flora123]

This is one fairly strong critique of it...

https://deniseminger.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/

Oh thank you @bulkbiker. It’s long so may heed a coffee! I feel my friends are where I was a few years ago and only just wanting to learn about nutrition, toxins and health. It’s the evangelical and almost aggressive way they are I can’t bear.

 

[Boo1979]

Dont know anything about the China study or much about veganism - I generally follow low carb diet that is a dairy free ((Im dairy intolerant) & pescatarian ( dont like the taste of most meats and also have some animal welfare concerns ).
LCHF can be quite easily done with or without meat.

 

[kitedoc]

The China study I have heard about was to do with the Chinese living in China cities were increasing their intake of cow's milk despite the tendency of some people to be sensitive to lactose (the sugar in milk.
The incidence of breast cancer has risen in the cities but not in the country where people could not afford so much.
The thought was that hormones in the milk might be stimulating breast cancer.
Of course there could be many other studies about health in China it is just that I read a book called "The China Study".

 

[bulkbiker]

The China study I have heard about was to do with the Chinese living in China cities were increasing their intake of cow's milk despite the tendency of some people to be sensitive to lactose (the sugar in milk.
The incidence of breast cancer has risen in the cities but not in the country where people could not afford so much.
The thought was that hormones in the milk might be stimulating breast cancer.
Of course there could be many other studies about health in China it is just that I read a book called "The China Study".

T Colin Campbell? If so that's the one...

 

[Flora123]

Dont know anything about the China study or much about veganism - I generally follow low carb diet that is a dairy free ((Im dairy intolerant) & pescatarian ( dont like the taste of most meats and also have some animal welfare concerns ).
LCHF can be quite easily done with or without meat.

It’s about a huge study on the merits plant based eating. So no meat or dairy. I am aware that it can be done but they are very anti LC.

 

[Kailee56]

Long post. Sorry.

I feel your pain. After reading The China Study, I cried because I love dairy products. I switched that day and ate that way for years. It is not just Vegan. It is No Fat Vegan. Well except for a rare nut or small helping of avocado occasionally, something acknowledged but discouraged. Yes, I read and saw it all and had a huge library of information and cookbooks. Still miss the China Study cookbooks granola and some of the happy herbivore’s soups.

So, what happened? Yes, I lost some weight, but I was always hungry, even though I ate huge volumes of food. I also had terrible cravings and missed being able to eat out. There is only one vegan restaurant near me.

Trivia: In the firehouse cookbook, when mentioning blood work, the author says his labs were off because once a year he indulges in a large hamburger which he had done the day before. Interesting because his whole family has eaten this way for years, they write resource and cookbooks about it, and his physician father prescribes it. Yet, he still craves meat.

So, one day I gave into my cravings. I think I had pizza. Over time, I gave in more and more. My weight started to go up and I remembered the Atkins diet from high school. Yes, I am that old. What I found was that I wasn’t hungry and ate less. I also lost the few pounds I had put on when eating carbs, protein, and fat. To me, that meant that my body was happier eating this way. Yes, when I was Vegan I felt morally superior, but my body wasn’t as happy. I stayed low carb/Atkinsish for a year or so, toying with Keto, until I found out I was diabetic. Then I switched to Keto. This is just my story.

Although plant based people will not admit this, recall moral superiority, some LCHF/Keto people will. High carb with low/no fat works well for some people. Just like high fat with low carb works well for some people. I do recall a study that compared the two and I think the conclusion was that the high carb worked well for people with no glucose metabolism issues. Whatever, it seems that carbs + fat does not work well for anyone. I also recall something about non-fat vegan working for overweight T2’s because the body needs fats to make hormones and such, and will pull them out of the liver and pancreas when not included in the diet. This can improve insulin production if it is being inhibited by a fatty pancreas.

Although the author of The China Study points out he was raised on a dairy farm and believed milk to be the perfect food, lending strength to his conversion to a vegan diet, I now question the study. I feel the conclusions are more about eating a processed food diet vs eating a real food diet. There were no areas in China eating a more paleo type diet to add to the mix. The areas compared were either remote and agricultural farming or more industrialized with more processed foods. Comparing the two, yes, agricultural won. But a diet low in carbs was not even on the table. Carbs were either natural or processed, never restricted. For me that means that NO conclusions about the benefit or detriment of LCHF can be drawn from the China Study. Apples and Oranges.

I would seriously consider letting your friends know that you are diabetic and severely carb intolerant. Let them know you respect their choices, but expect them to respect yours in return. That you have done the research, understand their view, but your body is making this choice as to what it can and cannot tolerate. This is your life, literally, and you need to do what is best for your body. Continuing lectures will only lead to resentment and you do not want to lose their friendship over something like food choices.

 

[Resurgam]

I have developed a pair of replies.
"I got to almost 300lb eating like that."
and
"Lets get together to compare notes in five years."

 

[kitedoc]

T Colin Campbell? If so that's the one...

Yes, @bulkbiker, that is the one.They also looked at the Philippines where it was expected that the staple diet of peanuts for protein intake would theoretically lead to more liver based cancers due to the fungal toxins in stored peanuts but instead found that cancers, particularly breast cancers were far ore common in the cities due to, they surmised, intake of milk and other animal proteins,
The China study followed and was particularly attractive as a study because of the numbers involved and the relative lack of much intermarriage with people outside China which allowed better statistics regarding ethnicity.

 

[Flora123]

Long post. Sorry.

I feel your pain. After reading The China Study, I cried because I love dairy products. I switched that day and ate that way for years. It is not just Vegan. It is No Fat Vegan. Well except for a rare nut or small helping of avocado occasionally, something acknowledged but discouraged. Yes, I read and saw it all and had a huge library of information and cookbooks. Still miss the China Study cookbooks granola and some of the happy herbivore’s soups.

So, what happened? Yes, I lost some weight, but I was always hungry, even though I ate huge volumes of food. I also had terrible cravings and missed being able to eat out. There is only one vegan restaurant near me.

Trivia: In the firehouse cookbook, when mentioning blood work, the author says his labs were off because once a year he indulges in a large hamburger which he had done the day before. Interesting because his whole family has eaten this way for years, they write resource and cookbooks about it, and his physician father prescribes it. Yet, he still craves meat.

So, one day I gave into my cravings. I think I had pizza. Over time, I gave in more and more. My weight started to go up and I remembered the Atkins diet from high school. Yes, I am that old. What I found was that I wasn’t hungry and ate less. I also lost the few pounds I had put on when eating carbs, protein, and fat. To me, that meant that my body was happier eating this way. Yes, when I was Vegan I felt morally superior, but my body wasn’t as happy. I stayed low carb/Atkinsish for a year or so, toying with Keto, until I found out I was diabetic. Then I switched to Keto. This is just my story.

Although plant based people will not admit this, recall moral superiority, some LCHF/Keto people will. High carb with low/no fat works well for some people. Just like high fat with low carb works well for some people. I do recall a study that compared the two and I think the conclusion was that the high carb worked well for people with no glucose metabolism issues. Whatever, it seems that carbs + fat does not work well for anyone. I also recall something about non-fat vegan working for overweight T2’s because the body needs fats to make hormones and such, and will pull them out of the liver and pancreas when not included in the diet. This can improve insulin production if it is being inhibited by a fatty pancreas.

Although the author of The China Study points out he was raised on a dairy farm and believed milk to be the perfect food, lending strength to his conversion to a vegan diet, I now question the study. I feel the conclusions are more about eating a processed food diet vs eating a real food diet. There were no areas in China eating a more paleo type diet to add to the mix. The areas compared were either remote and agricultural farming or more industrialized with more processed foods. Comparing the two, yes, agricultural won. But a diet low in carbs was not even on the table. Carbs were either natural or processed, never restricted. For me that means that NO conclusions about the benefit or detriment of LCHF can be drawn from the China Study. Apples and Oranges.

I would seriously consider letting your friends know that you are diabetic and severely carb intolerant. Let them know you respect their choices, but expect them to respect yours in return. That you have done the research, understand their view, but your body is making this choice as to what it can and cannot tolerate. This is your life, literally, and you need to do what is best for your body. Continuing lectures will only lead to resentment and you do not want to lose their friendship over something like food choices.

Thank you for your positive reply. No I definitely don’t want to lose two friends but I just can’t tell them....yet. One has a mum who is diabetic and quite scathing about her and how she got it, yet advocates a vegan and (what I think is) very high carb diet. I just don’t want to go there.

Having been veg for a while I while I was diagnosed while on a “healthy” vegetarian low GI based diet. Having made a difficult decision to go back to eating meat for the benefit of my body and BG levels, I can say I feel so much better. Both physically and mentally. More clarity of mind and much more energy.

I read the link that @bulkbiker posted above and yes it questions the CS report. I think I’m just going to go with my gut/body and smile sweetly and nod when appropriate.

Thanks for your responses. It is so good to have someone to “chat” to. Xx

 

[kitedoc]

And eating a true vegan diet is said (eventually) to cause low vitamin B 12 level which then requires supplements.
Even though a vegan diet is now accepted by medical authorities for use during pregnancy (in Australia), the B12 supplements are obligatory.

 

[Indy51]

Show them some of the videos on Youtube of long term vegans. If they don't scare them, nothing will

Just one:

 

[Deleted member 308541]

Show them some of the videos on Youtube of long term vegans. If they don't scare them, nothing will

Just one:

I have just watched a documentary on Prime Video about Auschwitz, the inmates are of similar appearance to the vegan people in your video @Indy51

 

[Boo1979]

Looks to me like one cult slagging off another cult, neither of which are to be believed .
Who exactly are unlockthepower ( the makers of this youtube offering?

 

[JohnEGreen]

AUSCHWITZ-BIRKENAU

The diet provided was I think mainly vegan apart from a small amount of sausage.

"Prisoners received three meals per day. In the morning, they received only half a liter of “coffee,” or rather boiled water with a grain-based coffee substitute added, or “tea”—a herbal brew. These beverages were usually unsweetened. The noon meal consisted of about a liter of soup, the main ingredients of which were potatoes, rutabaga, and small amounts of groats, rye flour, and Avo food extract. The soup was unappetizing, and newly arrived prisoners were often unable to eat it, or could do so only in disgust. Supper consisted of about 300 grams of black bread, served with about 25 grams of sausage, or margarine, or a tablespoon of marmalade or cheese. The bread served in the evening was supposed to cover the needs of the following morning as well, although the famished prisoners usually consumed the whole portion at once. The low nutritional value of these meals should be noted.

The combination of insufficient nutrition with hard labor contributed to the destruction of the organism, which gradually used up its stores of fat, muscle mass, and the tissues of the internal organs. "

 

[Boo1979]

I think the diet provided was simply a starvation one low in everything - protein, fat, calories, carbs, veg, meat etc etc
http://auschwitz.net/en/auschwitz-diet/

 

[JohnEGreen]

That't correct a starvation diet that consisted in the main of vegetables.

 

[JohnEGreen]

"Oh, you know, Mr. Bumble, he must be mad," said Mrs. Sowerberry. "No boy in half his senses could venture to speak so to you."

"It's not Madness, ma'am," replied Mr. Bumble, after a few moments of deep meditation. "It's Meat."

"What?" exclaimed Mrs. Sowerberry.

"Meat, ma'am, meat," replied Bumble, with stern emphasis. "You've over-fed him, ma'am. You've raised a artificial soul and spirit in him, ma'am, unbecoming a person of his condition: as the board, Mrs. Sowerberry, who are practical philosophers, will tell you. What have paupers to do with soul or spirit? It's quite enough that we let 'em have live bodies. If you had kept the boy on gruel, ma'am, this would never have happened."

Oliver Twist chapter seven.

 

[Indy51]

Looks to me like one cult slagging off another cult, neither of which are to be believed .
Who exactly are unlockthepower ( the makers of this youtube offering?

Even so, these are still real clips of real vegans taken from their own self-produced videos published on the net. The people compiling the videos are just re-using the source material.

I think my favourite one is of a guy going absolutely bonkers, repeatedly shouting at the camera for people to "leave the &!$3ing animals alone" - he shouts so hard one of his front teeth falls out