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The Guardian

Discussion in 'Type 2 Diabetes' started by derry60, Jan 10, 2019.

  1. Ponchu

    Ponchu · Well-Known Member

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  2. midnightrider

    midnightrider Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I would prefer not to make an official complaint.
    I would just like an apology for your reply which misrepresented my original post.
    You said that I criticised the book mentioned when I had not done so, and said that this appeared hypocritical. I feel that an apology is due for misreading my post. If you do not think this is the case then please say so.
    I am not accusing you of a personal attack, just suggesting that you misread my original post before replying.
     
    #122 midnightrider, Jan 12, 2019 at 6:02 PM
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  3. Ponchu

    Ponchu · Well-Known Member

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    We went to large national food grocer this morning.

    My own personal estimate:

    It’s 2019 and

    A. Shoppers jockeying for parking spot closest to the door that burns the least amount of most calories burned.

    B. Maybe 70% or more of what is sold is harmful, to some degree to our health.

    The store is huge. Of 19 aisles, we used one.

    Weird.
     
  4. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Master

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    In the field of human nutrition when observational studies and food frequency questionnaires are common and no-one is locked up and fed precise things for years on end the evidence will never be conclusive. Most of the "science" is based on either faulty info or mice/rat studies. "Low carb diets" that are studied are rarely low carb as we know them and as has been said many times epidemiological studies are very open to misinterpretation and bias. The "experts" themselves often come along with their own views and then cherry pick the evidence that supports their view.
    I have read a lot of studies over the past 3 years looking at this but am far more tempted to follow my own experience and that of others on this site. I have seen what I and many others have been able to achieve so am happy to advocate that.
     
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  5. Flora123

    Flora123 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    You should read it and see. That sales blurb is not reflective of the book. You’re not a low carber then?
     
  6. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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  7. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

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    Speaking of insults, you yourself accused some (all?) Commenters on this thread of having 'confirmation bias'. You also ask whether anyone has read the full study so I am assuming that you have read it before deciding whether it deserves merit? Otherwise you could be accused of having bias in thinking all studies (epidemiological or otherwise) are of sufficient quality as to automatically warrant merit.
    In closing, I give you Ancel Keys.
     
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  8. midnightrider

    midnightrider Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Conformation bias is something everyone suffers from, it just means that we naturally give more weight to anything that fits with what we already believe. It is very hard to avoid even when aware of it, and it really is not an insult.
    Ultimately it is the main reason why scientific method always involves attempting to DISprove your theory, NEVER to attempt to prove that something is true.
    Yes, I have read the paper in full, and as I said earlier, it is not quite as good as previous meta analysis done by the Cochrane Organisation on a similar topic. It is certainly worthy of consideration though.
     
  9. midnightrider

    midnightrider Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I doubt I will get the time, but if I find it in the library you never know. It is hard to see how any reputable writer would allow such nonsense in their advertising material though.
    My carbs are kept well below 200g/day in the main and I avoid almost all processed food (though I do eat plenty of meat and fish). My HbA1c has been 32 for the last 3 or 4 biannual readings.
    I have no problems with LCHF when necessary, just don't think it suitable for people with normal BG levels.
     
  10. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

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    I know what CB is and I am aware that every reputable scientist would take great strides to disprove his/her own results to rule it out. In my lowly opinion epidemiological studies can be an indicator that prompts further (clinical) research but I am very wary of drawing any firm conclusions from said whether they fit my world view or not.
     
  11. Ponchu

    Ponchu · Well-Known Member

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    Question 1: yes

    Question 2: yes

    Question 3: sometimes.

    I think you’re best suited to make decisions for yourself, your life, family; not politicians.



    As such, I’m am to be deplored.
     
  12. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    No. You as a scientist should know that proving a negative to leave a (by default) positive is never a valid way of proving things. Certainly one must eliminate confounders and extraneous noise, but that is only partially successful and not a robust method at all. I am surprised you find such cast iron proof in studies that use hearsay . word of mouth. memory and minimal sampling during the study with uncontrolled inputs as being your Gold Standard for science trials. The report in the OP shows very weak association if that, and cannot give the quantitative result being claimed, since it is a meta study of other meta studies, I am not saying that fibre is not important, but the OP report is rubbish IMHO, and I have studied a great many trials reports in my time.
     
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    #132 Oldvatr, Jan 12, 2019 at 8:39 PM
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  13. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I merely asked the questions. I am not your judge or jury.
     
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  14. Dillinger

    Dillinger Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    A couple of things; you are pushing a classic 'argument from authority' position with your 30 years experience, impeccable HbA1c, support for dietary expert researchers and full analysis of the study text.

    But none of that matters; it is the song not the singer. As has been repeatedly highlighted this song is problematic.

    You are also following a wearying trope of aggressively having a go at anyone having the temerity to argue with you whilst also claiming victimhood.

    If LCHF is not suitable for people with normal blood sugar what is the point, exactly, of repeatedly ramming that point home on a forum exclusively populated with people without normal blood sugar?

    Lastly, as an expert in 'conformation (sic) bias' would it hurt to actually learn how to spell it?

    Dillinger
     
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  15. Indy51

    Indy51 Type 2 · Expert

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    OK, so check out Prof Ioannidis and Dr Prasad and tell me what is factually wrong in their considered critiques of nutritional epidemiology. Despite what you may think, there is no consensus among scientists that nutritional epidemiology is a true science. It is considered soft science at best given the methodological weaknesses (in particular food frequency questionnaires) that the field relies upon.
     
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    #135 Indy51, Jan 12, 2019 at 8:51 PM
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  16. Jim Lahey

    Jim Lahey I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Two simple rules to remember when studying observational/meta analysis;

    1. Association cannot ever prove causation.
    2. Lack of association always disproves causation.

    But then those that understand the scientific method already know this ;)
     
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  17. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Master

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    Why not?
     
  18. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Moderator
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    Interesting
    I have read your post several times and it seems to me you are saying that unless I apologise for something I didn’t do, you will submit an official complaint. I hope you are not saying that, since there is a name for that game, and I do not play it.

    Nevertheless, I will not apologise for something I didn’t do.

    If you wish to submit an official complaint, you can do so using the forum@diabetes.co.uk email address.

    And I will not be discussing this matter further on this thread.

    Edited to add the last sentence.
     
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    #138 Brunneria, Jan 12, 2019 at 10:54 PM
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
  19. derry60

    derry60 Prediabetes · Well-Known Member

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    All I know is. I ate high carbs for years, what I thought was healthy for me and followed doctors advice after a heart attack nearly 15 years ago now. I ended up with Pre-diabetes. I ate brown bread with all the nuts and seeds in, always brown pasta and rice. Brown couscous, root veg, Low-fat yoghurts low fat cheese and spread and so on. If I had of known then what I know now, before being diagnosed as Prediabetic I would have eaten low carb high fat instead of following the doctor's diet sheet. Midnight..You say that you do not think a person with normal BGL's should be on a LCHF or words to that effect, well then perhaps if many of us were on LCHF years ago, we would not be having BG problems today. I now ask my sons to watch their carb intake.
     
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  20. Ponchu

    Ponchu · Well-Known Member

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    I low fat high carb’d my way to a host of health problems.

    6 months LCHF reversed it all.

    It’s very difficult to talk one out of an experience.
     
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