The one show discussion

lucylocket61 · Jun 1, 2018

Tannith said:
It worked for all the ones who lost the weight not the ones who didn't. It then worked for the half of those who kept the weight off, not the half who didn't. The METHOD works for everyone ie fat off = diabetes gone. The INDIVIDUALS even those who have the same counselling etc often fail. In fact half of them do. We need to find a way of helping the half who couldn't keep the fat off get the right kind of counselling to succeed in getting the fat off. And incidentally it doesn't have to be shakes or 9 weeks. Dr Taylor has said many times that if you can do it with real food so much the better. And it takes as long as it takes to lose the fat from the pancreas and liver. This will be on average 15% of the person's weight at diagnosis. Absolutely SIMPLE, albeit not easy to do. Why is is no one expects to have to do anything difficult any more? Can it be a generational thing? If I can do it and I am a little old lady in my seventies why can't big strong middle aged men?

excuse me????? simple???? I am incensed by this.

I have been trying for 25 years to reduce my weight. Only through low carbing have I achieved a small loss and no more weight gain. Its not simple or through a lack of effort!!!

The diet only works while they are on it because it involves a reduction in carbs. I am living proof that you dont need weight loss to have good blood sugars, you only need the right carb content for what your own body can deal with.

The idea that weight loss is necessary is a myth. Its diet that is important. The diabetes goes due to lowering carbs during the diet.

I wonder how many of them, even the ones who kept their weight loss off, went back to higher blood sugar levels when they went back to eating higher carb amounts.

Guzzler · Jun 1, 2018

Tannith said:
It worked for all the ones who lost the weight not the ones who didn't. It then worked for the half of those who kept the weight off, not the half who didn't. The METHOD works for everyone ie fat off = diabetes gone. The INDIVIDUALS even those who have the same counselling etc often fail. In fact half of them do. We need to find a way of helping the half who couldn't keep the fat off get the right kind of counselling to succeed in getting the fat off. And incidentally it doesn't have to be shakes or 9 weeks. Dr Taylor has said many times that if you can do it with real food so much the better. And it takes as long as it takes to lose the fat from the pancreas and liver. This will be on average 15% of the person's weight at diagnosis. Absolutely SIMPLE, albeit not easy to do. Why is is no one expects to have to do anything difficult any more? Can it be a generational thing? If I can do it and I am a little old lady in my seventies why can't big strong middle aged men?

The programme centred on a crash diet based on shakes and soups. And I would argue that there is no such thing as "Diabetes gone". No one expects remission to be easily attainable by whatever regime is used.

Tannith · Jun 1, 2018

first14808 said:
That's the potentially dangerous part, ie an assumption that it's as simple as doing that. Hence the need for follow-up studies to see if people's diabetes stays 'in remission'. Otherwise there's a risk that if someone goes back to a high-carb diet, damage will be done if they're still fundamentally diabetic. Or carb intolerant, or have metabolic syndrome, or other factors that may get lumped together as diabetes. If following ND means a long-term normal response to a GTT, then that's great.. but it may not work for everyone.

Prof Taylor has clearly stated several times that in order keep the diabetes at bay you have to keep the weight off http://www.ncl.ac.uk/press/articles/archive/2017/09/type2diabetesisreversible/
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/36/4/1047

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160322080542.htm:

I would have thought this would have been obvious without his even saying so. You can eat any diet you like as long as it does not result in putting the fat back on.

AdamJames · Jun 1, 2018

@Tannith

Speaking as possibly one of the most non-sceptical people here on the subject of the ND, I'd like to tackle those comments as they are a little troubling to say the least.

I get that you are trying to promote something which you feel has worked for you, and I appreciate all insight from people who have done something successful, but posts like yours are going to alienate and annoy people and make them possibly less, not more, inclined to try this approach. To mis-quote you, you are essentially saying to people "for pity's sake, just do this simple thing and you'll be cured, what's keeping you?".

Tannith said:
The METHOD works for everyone ie fat off = diabetes gone.

There's a few things I think you've overlooked there:

1) It is known to not work for everyone, particularly those who have had T2 for a long time.

2) You haven't addressed the matter of thin people with T2.

3) You have to be prepared to define the phrase "diabetes gone". Please do. According to the latest definition in the DiRECT study for 'remission', I am in remission. But I can't eat carbs safely as my blood glucose meter makes clear. AND I've been waking up most mornings for the last 2-3 months with a blood sugar at about 9.5. Yet I got an HbA1c very recently of 47, so I'm in remission according to you. You've got some serious work to do if you are going to convince me that my "diabetes has gone".

Tannith said:
This will be on average 15% of the person's weight at diagnosis. Absolutely SIMPLE, albeit not easy to do.

This is an almost farcical over-simplification / generalisation. To be fair to you, it's a bizarre figure often quoted by Roy Taylor, and probably stems from the fact the average weight of initial participants was 100kg and they lost about 15kg. But back to reality: there are people on this forum, myself included, who have lost well over 15% of their highest body weight and are still very diabetic.

Honestly, to be blunt, I don't think the kind of post you made is a good way to get people to try something which could, for some people, help.

Guzzler · Jun 1, 2018

Tannith said:
Prof Taylor has clearly stated several times that in order keep the diabetes at bay you have to keep the weight off http://www.ncl.ac.uk/press/articles/archive/2017/09/type2diabetesisreversible/
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/36/4/1047

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160322080542.htm:

I would have thought this would have been obvious without his even saying so. You can eat any diet you like as long as it does not result in putting the fat back on.

What if you have no fat to lose?

We all understand the mechanism of de novo lipogenesis or rather we understand the end result of excess carbohydrate. A diet consisting of 800 calories of high carb food would, imo, not aid weight loss or bg.

AdamJames · Jun 1, 2018

Tannith said:
Why is is no one expects to have to do anything difficult any more? Can it be a generational thing? If I can do it and I am a little old lady in my seventies why can't big strong middle aged men?

Many things in life can be difficult, not just weight loss.

One of the most difficult things in life is seeing things accurately, including all pros and cons, and all the nuances. I think you should probably up your own game, and challenge yourself, to do that difficult process when it comes to the caveats of the ND.

Guzzler · Jun 1, 2018

ND would not work for me because (a) I'm different to you, and (b) I'm different to you.

And those middle aged men? They are all different, too.

lindisfel · Jun 1, 2018

The problem with these programs is they are superficial for those who have studied this subject like most of us.
Inevitably there are questions we want to ask Prof Taylor and the people taking part.

I found the statement by Prof Taylor about pancreatic fat causing insulin to be ineffective seemed to imply all T2Ds had low insulin. That is clearly not the case because c.65% of the American population have up to 5x the insulin in their blood of those whose insulin is not raised. The problem actually directly relates to metabolic syndrome before high blood glucose is manifest.

I suppose if the Newcastle diet fixes someone and they are happy with not really knowing, it's ok.

It was interesting seeing their post diet meals! Refined carbs did not seem to figure much. If they have low carb and low fat they will eventually run into trouble with protein metabolism.
regards
Derek

Tannith · Jun 1, 2018

AdamJames said:
@Tannith

Speaking as possibly one of the most non-sceptical people here on the subject of the ND, I'd like to tackle those comments as they are a little troubling to say the least.

I get that you are trying to promote something which you feel has worked for you, and I appreciate all insight from people who have done something successful, but posts like yours are going to alienate and annoy people and make them possibly less, not more, inclined to try this approach. To mis-quote you, you are essentially saying to people "for pity's sake, just do this simple thing and you'll be cured, what's keeping you?".

There's a few things I think you've overlooked there:

1) It is known to not work for everyone, particularly those who have had T2 for a long time.

2) You haven't addressed the matter of thin people with T2.

3) You have to be prepared to define the phrase "diabetes gone". Please do. According to the latest definition in the DiRECT study for 'remission', I am in remission. But I can't eat carbs safely as my blood glucose meter makes clear. AND I've been waking up most mornings for the last 2-3 months with a blood sugar at about 9.5. Yet I got an HbA1c very recently of 47, so I'm in remission according to you. You've got some serious work to do if you are going to convince me that my "diabetes has gone".

This is an almost farcical over-simplification / generalisation. To be fair to you, it's a bizarre figure often quoted by Roy Taylor, and probably stems from the fact the average weight of initial participants was 100kg and they lost about 15kg. But back to reality: there are people on this forum, myself included, who have lost well over 15% of their highest body weight and are still very diabetic.

Honestly, to be blunt, I don't think the kind of post you made is a good way to get people to try something which could, for some people, help.

There's a few things I think you've overlooked there:

1) It is known to not work for everyone, particularly those who have had T2 for a long time.

2) You haven't addressed the matter of thin people with T2.

3) You have to be prepared to define the phrase "diabetes gone". Please do. According to the latest definition in the DiRECT study for 'remission', I am in remission." I can't comment on whether or not you personally are in emission.
If I went into everything I'd be writing the whole of the articles I quote at the bottom. But I do quote Prof Taylor's work or some of it. It is widely known and quoted below that the diet works less well or not at all for those who have had T 2 for 0ver 6 - 10 years. Presumably by then their pancreatic fat has killed their beta cells or damaged them beyond repair. Prof Taylor proves his result by his magic scanner which is of course not available to us even in our local hospitals but he confirms this with a battery of tests on things like insulin which are quoted in one of the longer and better known articles ( I think the one relating to the second trial). He gives us a layman's guide to aim for of 15% of our weight at diagnosis ie the point at which we had just reached our personal fat threshhold. Its good enough to give us a rough idea of whether we think the necessary weight loss is feasible for us but he admits it is a rough and ready estimate. He says in one of his videos that though there were no Tofis in his studies, he thinks they too may have a personal fat threshhold, just that he is not sure because it has never been tested.

bulkbiker · Jun 1, 2018

Tannith said:
Prof Taylor has clearly stated several times that in order keep the diabetes at bay you have to keep the weight off http://www.ncl.ac.uk/press/articles/archive/2017/09/type2diabetesisreversible/
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/36/4/1047

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160322080542.htm:

I would have thought this would have been obvious without his even saying so. You can eat any diet you like as long as it does not result in putting the fat back on.

Interestingly Prof Taylor has never ever once mentioned what that diet should be... ever wondered why?
A little bird told me he may well advocate the LCHF diet once they have finished the ND but because of his sponsors (DUK and Cambridge Diet) he is not able to say this is the case. I have no proof of this but....

bulkbiker · Jun 1, 2018

lindisfel said:
I found the statement by Prof Taylor about pancreatic fat causing insulin to be ineffective seemed to imply all T2Ds had low insulin. That is clearly not the case because c.65% of the American population have up to 5x the insulin in their blood of those whose insulin is not raised. The problem actually directly relates to metabolic syndrome before high blood glucose is manifest.

And if only there was a way to measure it .... oh wait there is but the NHS hardly ever uses it... why I wonder?

AdamJames · Jun 1, 2018

Tannith said:
I can't comment on whether or not you personally are in emission.

But you sort of have. In fact you made a sweeping statement about how everyone could make their diabetes go away. You either accept the definition of remission in the DiRECT study or you don't. And you either believe that remission equals "diabetes gone" or you don't.

Your original post made it sound so simple. My diabetes as gone. Thankfully you are now acknowledging it is not as simple as that.

But never mind whether or not my "diabetes is gone", how about yours? I'll be back in a moment. I'm going to prepare you a challenge which you might be interested in.

lucylocket61 · Jun 1, 2018

Tannith said:
You can eat any diet you like as long as it does not result in putting the fat back on.

really? I can eat a low fat high carb diet and keep my diabetes in remission?

well, it didnt worked for the 20 years previous to me finding this forum. There is no simple blanket solution for everyone, and thats the danger of such programmes.

ickihun · Jun 1, 2018

I'm coming to the conclusion that weight loss is only ever possible once the liver is working properly first....... no matter the diet.
My job is to clear my fatty liver then weight loss happens, again. As my diet has never been a weight gaining one for most people.
The head has to be in the right frame of mind thou, otherwise it becomes a yo-yo diet.

AdamJames · Jun 1, 2018

Okay @Tannith,

I've been very indecisive about trying the ND approach but it has it's appeal to me. You could push me over the edge to try it. I'm certainly not doing well with weight loss or blood sugar control at the moment, so now's a good time for a change.

Here's a graph of two Oral Glucose Tolerance Tests:

The blue one is mine. The red one is from somebody who has been diagnosed as T2 but is now deemed in remission. If I can ever get anything like the red results, that's a definition of remission that would satisfy me. That's the kind of result which I think the ND may be able to get for some people if they catch things early enough.

This is not about a global agreement on the definition of remission. This is personal. I'm making this up now, but I will stick to this promise:

If you get some Rapilose and conduct a home OGTT, measuring your blood glucose every 20 minutes, and your level doesn't rise above 12 (that's a bit of leeway beyond the good result in the graph), and at 2 hours is back to within 2 mmol/l of your starting point (that's a bit of leeway beyond the good result in the graph), then I'll do the ND for 8 weeks straight, not ifs, no buts, no excuses.

AdamJames · Jun 1, 2018

I wanted to check first to make sure she was okay with it, but I can now reveal that the wonderful red line in the OGTT I just posted belongs to @DCUKMod!

AdamJames · Jun 1, 2018

@Tannith,

I just realised when I wrote that the red line in the graph belongs to someone who is deemed in remission ... in fact, according to the DiRECT study, BOTH lines belong to someone who is deemed to be in remission. This shows just how unhelpful sweeping statements like 'diabetes gone' are. It also shows how overlooking detail and nuances can cause bad feeling.

This documentary will promote your stated view, that all anyone has to do is a simple process for 8 weeks and they are cured. But then there's reality.

Guzzler · Jun 1, 2018

AdamJames said:
I wanted to check first to make sure she was okay with it, but I can now reveal that the wonderful red line in the OGTT I just posted belongs to @DCUKMod!

The jammy beggar!

Well done @DCUKMod !

Tannith · Jun 2, 2018

AdamJames said:
@Tannith

Speaking as possibly one of the most non-sceptical people here on the subject of the ND, I'd like to tackle those comments as they are a little troubling to say the least.

I get that you are trying to promote something which you feel has worked for you, and I appreciate all insight from people who have done something successful, but posts like yours are going to alienate and annoy people and make them possibly less, not more, inclined to try this approach. To mis-quote you, you are essentially saying to people "for pity's sake, just do this simple thing and you'll be cured, what's keeping you?".

There's a few things I think you've overlooked there:

1) It is known to not work for everyone, particularly those who have had T2 for a long time.

2) You haven't addressed the matter of thin people with T2.

3) You have to be prepared to define the phrase "diabetes gone". Please do. According to the latest definition in the DiRECT study for 'remission', I am in remission. But I can't eat carbs safely as my blood glucose meter makes clear. AND I've been waking up most mornings for the last 2-3 months with a blood sugar at about 9.5. Yet I got an HbA1c very recently of 47, so I'm in remission according to you. You've got some serious work to do if you are going to convince me that my "diabetes has gone".

This is an almost farcical over-simplification / generalisation. To be fair to you, it's a bizarre figure often quoted by Roy Taylor, and probably stems from the fact the average weight of initial participants was 100kg and they lost about 15kg. But back to reality: there are people on this forum, myself included, who have lost well over 15% of their highest body weight and are still very diabetic.

Honestly, to be blunt, I don't think the kind of post you made is a good way to get people to try something which could, for some people, help.

I think not trying ND because it might not work is like not sitting an exam because not everyone gets an "A". Also whether or not you lose the weight and keep it off is usually your decision, no one else's. Obviously if you have had T2 for so long that all the beta cells are dead there would be no point in trying but if some survive there could still be some improvement if not complete remission.

lucylocket61 · Jun 2, 2018

Tannith said:
Also whether or not you lose the weight and keep it off is usually your decision,

please, please do some research on this. Promoting this misinformation of yours is not helpful.

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