The role of ketones in health?

[fatbird]

Could someone please tell me what these scary side effects are, I know of none.

FB

 

[Andy12345]

i am not good at researching but was under the impression they were a good thing, until now everything i ever read about it suggested they were good and i am not confusing ketogenic with ketoacidosis

 

[paul-1976]

Yeah, read the info booklet that comes with keto sticks/ketone strips. There not limited to only diabetics and info for general public.

Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

Jesus wept!! :shock: That's your whole argument RE: Ketoacidosis Vs Ketosis based on the literature supplied with Bayer Ketostix? :roll:

 

[mrman]

Yeah, read the info booklet that comes with keto sticks/ketone strips. There not limited to only diabetics and info for general public.

Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

Jesus wept!! :shock: That's your whole argument RE: Ketoacidosis Vs Ketosis based on the literature supplied with Bayer Ketostix? :roll:

No paul, as I said info there on google.




Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

 

[fatbird]

Brett

Please could you give us links thank you.

FB

 

[douglas99]

Thanks for the info, I shall look into that. I like learning new things.

However I don't see why Bernstein having a section on vitamins and minerals as you point out should be a big deal or mean the diet is dangerous/unhealthy.
After all we are told by doctors to take vitamin / mineral supplements when eating high carb diets , so shouldn't that suggest these are deficient somehow too?

How come Sweden recommend a high fat, low car diet if research suggests they cause osteoporosis etc? (I'm just wondering, and am not trying to be antagonistic!)

I personally think that everyone just needs to find something they are happy with and helps control their diabetes. For me that's low carb, but for others high carb is fine.

Sweden suggest a six month diet for weight loss to couteract obesity, at no stage do they suggest it should be a livestyle choice, and oddly enough, look at where Sweden is in the osteoporosis table for Europe.
As for Bernstein, as I have said all the way through, like him, don't ignore the fact he supports the diet, and yet included the chapters.
Maybe he thinks the diet would be dangerous if he didn't mention it.

 

[fatbird]

The Swedish Government is recommending a low carb diet for the entire population.

"In short, when they looked at all the evidence, they found that low carb/high fat diets raise HDL cholesterol (the so-called ‘good’ cholesterol). They have no effect on LDL levels; they also lower blood sugar levels and triglyceride (VLDL) levels. All good and healthy, and all of which basically means that insulin resistance has been reduced – the underlying cause of diabetes."

http://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2013/10/20 ... -is-right/

http://coconutoil.com/sweden-becomes-fi ... nutrition/

FB

 

[phoenix]

1)

How come Sweden recommend a high fat, low car diet if research suggests they cause osteoporosis etc? (I'm just wondering, and am not trying to be antagonistic!)

'No we didn't say LCHF diets are always the best ' This was written by the authors of the report after some of the reports on the internet and newspapers.
ie a lot of misquoting going on

'For other food types , such as low carbohydrate diets (like Atkins or LCHF ) or diet with a low GI , no scientific evidence to determine whether they affect morbidity or mortality in people with obesity'

see http://www.aftonbladet.se/debatt/article17631151.ab You'll have to put it through a translation site unless you speak Swedish


2) my concerns are about individuals we are all different, backgrounds, problems etc etc.
(several potential concerns but I'll just mention one)
As was shown earlier Keto diets in epilepsy have lead to bone loss (and the mechanism ie why is described in many papers)

Osteoporosis is not a nice condition. It is implicated in fractures, often caused by simple falls. Hip and femoral fractures frequently don't mend in these cases and may lead to death . Worse though, in my opinion is the on going pain and loss of mobility caused by osteoporosis. This is just as bad as any of the complications of diabetes mentioned earlier

Two scenarios to show people at opposite ends of the spectrum .

a) A man in his 60s. He was overweight got diabetes He went on a very low carb, ketogenic diet. He lost the weight and glucose levels fell. Unfortunately, he weight loss didn't save him from needing a couple of stents in the narrow arteries that he developed pre diabetes . Nevertheless, he is doing well and thinks he can maintain the status quo.

He's male, he may have developed a good bone density earlier in life and doing weight bearing exercise which increases bone density ( that includes walking with an excess weight) . As a man his bone loss is slower than in women.
Research evidence is inconsistent, some say that bone density is slightly increased in T2, some say about normal, however there appears to be an increased risk of falls in old age.

b) An adolescent girl with T1, worrying about her weight and increasing glucose levels. She's of normal weight.
she's scared about increasing insulin so thinks about changing diet .
Insulin needs increase greatly in puberty. Bone is laid down in the years up to about 30. After that it slowly demineralises. After the menopause the speed of bone loss increases greatly. One in three women develop osteoporosis in old age. Low bone mineral density is consistently observed in T1 women so the risk is greatly increased . Hypoglycaemia adds to the risk of falls.


Ok stereotypes but is a ketogenic diet applicable for both? for ever?

 

[paul-1976]

Sweden suggest a six month diet for weight loss to couteract obesity, at no stage do they suggest it should be a livestyle choice, and oddly enough, look at where Sweden is in the osteoporosis table for Europe.
As for Bernstein, as I have said all the way through, like him, don't ignore the fact he supports the diet, and yet included the chapters.
Maybe he thinks the diet would be dangerous if he didn't mention it.

On the subject of Sweden and dietary regimes why not check out Dr Andreas eenfeldt AKA the 'Diet Doctor'....Interesting blog-well worth a read! :thumbup:

http://www.dietdoctor.com/

 

[douglas99]

The Swedish Government is recommending a low carb diet for the entire population.

"In short, when they looked at all the evidence, they found that low carb/high fat diets raise HDL cholesterol (the so-called ‘good’ cholesterol). They have no effect on LDL levels; they also lower blood sugar levels and triglyceride (VLDL) levels. All good and healthy, and all of which basically means that insulin resistance has been reduced – the underlying cause of diabetes."

http://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2013/10/20 ... -is-right/

http://coconutoil.com/sweden-becomes-fi ... nutrition/

FB

Seriously?

From your links, it's a report entitled “Dietary Treatment for Obesity”
So they issue “Dietary Treatment for Obesity” , and then advise the whole population to switch to it?
Are they all obese?
Every one of them?

 

[douglas99]

Back on a serious note, the other risk of a high fat diet (for me at least) is the indigestion I get. I can take my usual prescription anti acids, proton pump inhibitors. However, these work on decreasing stomach acid, which in turn lowers absorption of calcium from food. Guess what that makes worse as well?

Low fat, balanced, and I don't need them anymore.

 

[fatbird]

Phoenix said.

"Osteoporosis is not a nice condition. It is implicated in fractures, often caused by simple falls. Hip and femoral fractures frequently don't mend in these cases and may lead to death . Worse though, in my opinion is the on going pain and loss of mobility caused by osteoporosis. This is just as bad as any of the complications of diabetes mentioned earlier"

I agree but when I read about diabetic complications-I see the biggest cause in working age blindness. The highest reason for non trauma limb amputation-the biggest cause for kidney dialysis. Osteoporosis is not high up on the list for death for diabetics. Heart attack-stroke-cancer and alzheimer's is also on the list for diabetics. Most of these complications centre on poor BG numbers. 93% of UK type one diabetics fail to get to a safe BG number. NHS statistics. BG is the priority in my opinion.

FB

 

[paul-1976]

Back on a serious note, the other risk of a high ft diet (for me at least) is the indigestion I get. I can take my usual prescription anti acids, proton pump inhibitors. However, these work on decreasing stomach acid, which in turn lowers absorption of calcium from food. Guess what that makes worse as well?

That's interesting,I found after a while on a low carb diet that I could manage without my Omaprozole tablet as my GERD symptoms subsided-I guess we're all different eh? lol

 

[Pompeygirl]

its scarey stuff this, if for example someone was about to try a ketogenic diet that would maybe save their life or lengthen it, after reading this could be put off, therefore not achieve what they may have, or visa versa, scarey scarey stuff indeed

Well im scared


Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

 

[mrman]

Me too

Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

 

[WhitbyJet]

Was a Swedish doctor who advised a lchf diet, practically saved my life, six years of lchf, both my non-diabetic husband (80g carbs a day) and I (50g) had DEXA scans done as part of our medical MOTs, both came out at +1, no issues and that is good enough for me.

I am still seen by the medical team in Sweden on a regular basis, the consultant is very happy with my progress, happy for me to continue with my lchf lifestyle.

 

[fatbird]

its scarey stuff this, if for example someone was about to try a ketogenic diet that would maybe save their life or lengthen it, after reading this could be put off, therefore not achieve what they may have, or visa versa, scarey scarey stuff indeed

Well im scared


Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

Never be scared, the key is controlling BG numbers. The answers are on this forum.

WJ said.

"Was a Swedish doctor who advised a lchf diet, practically saved my life, six years of lchf, both my non-diabetic husband (80g carbs a day) and I (50g) had DEXA scans done as part of our medical MOTs, both came out at +1, no issues and that is good enough for me.

I am still seen by the medical team in Sweden on a regular basis, the consultant is very happy with my progress, happy for me to continue with my lchf lifestyle."

That's a good clue.


FB

 

[douglas99]

Was a Swedish doctor who advised a lchf diet, practically saved my life, six years of lchf, both my non-diabetic husband (80g carbs a day) and I (50g) had DEXA scans done as part of our medical MOTs, both came out at +1, no issues and that is good enough for me.

I am still seen by the medical team in Sweden on a regular basis, the consultant is very happy with my progress, happy for me to continue with my lchf lifestyle.

That's exactly what I'm talking about!

LCHF under medical advice, with the correct supervision, regular reviews of the continuance of the diet, and the DEXA scan shows they know the side effects, and are treating accordingly.

Way to do it properly!

 

[fatbird]

Was a Swedish doctor who advised a lchf diet, practically saved my life, six years of lchf, both my non-diabetic husband (80g carbs a day) and I (50g) had DEXA scans done as part of our medical MOTs, both came out at +1, no issues and that is good enough for me.

I am still seen by the medical team in Sweden on a regular basis, the consultant is very happy with my progress, happy for me to continue with my lchf lifestyle.

That's exactly what I'm talking about!

LCHF under medical advice, with the correct supervision, regular reviews of the continuance of the diet, and the DEXA scan shows they know the side effects, and are treating accordingly.

Way to do it properly!

I think I do it properly but I ask again what are these side effects?

FB

 

[Pompeygirl]

Thank you whitby for your input. Do you do anything different to the general lchf that is generally talked about on the forums? Do you take supplements?


Sent from the Diabetes Forum App