The role of ketones in health?

[WhitbyJet]

Douglas the DEXA was done in the UK part of private screening. The Swedish doctors do blood tests.

Pompeygirl I take 2 supplements to aid kidney function. I have my vitamin and mineral levels checked twice a year and so far never had a deficiency or imbalance. I eat a very varied diet.

 

[douglas99]

Douglas the DEXA was done in the UK part of private screening. The Swedish doctors do blood tests.

Pompeygirl I take 2 supplements to aid kidney function. I have my vitamin and mineral levels checked twice a year and so far never had a deficiency or imbalance. I eat a very varied diet.

The DEXA screening is an excellent aid to the diet, will you ever have another one if it wasn't required, other than by yourself? If it was needed, what prompted it?

Again, vitamin and minerals are another good check as part of the diet.

As I said, done well, it's not a problem.

Are you on proton pump inhibitors as part of your meds?

I take it your diet is ketogenic?

 

[WhitbyJet]

DEXA was recommended by my .GP and when I first started with lchf I consulted with a dietician to ensure that I getting all the nutrients. What a farce it was, she was against low carb but the she realised that I was not letting anything stop me she was very helpful. I have these checks done privately.

I don't take any prescription medicines, I eat more fat than protein because of reduced kidney function. My cholesterol is perfect and I have no acid reflux.
I take Co Enzyme Q10 and Alpha Lipoic Acid as these supplements are said to strengthen kidneys. My kidneys have rallied round they have gone from stage 3-4 to stage 2.

 

[douglas99]

DEXA was recommended by my .GP and when I first started with lchf I consulted with a dietician to ensure that I getting all the nutrients. What a farce it was, she was against low carb but the she realised that I was not letting anything stop me she was very helpful. I have these checks done privately.

I don't take any prescription medicines, I eat more fat than protein because of reduced kidney function. My cholesterol is perfect and I have no acid reflux.
I take Co Enzyme Q10 and Alpha Lipoic Acid as these supplements are said to strengthen kidneys. My kidneys have rallied round they have gone from stage 3-4 to stage 2.

Thanks for the input.
I take my hat off to you and the medical team supporting your decisions.

 

[tonyS54]

As a type 2 I really don't think low level ketones on a low carb diet are any cause for concern but of course that's just my opinion. Thanks to my friend google I found a couple of low carb studies that among the results show the effects on bone density, there are other shorter term studies that reach the same conclusions.

Weight and Metabolic Outcomes After 2 Years on a Low-Carbohydrate Versus Low-Fat Diet: A Randomized Trial

Weight loss was approximately 11 kg (11%) at 1 year and 7 kg (7%) at 2 years. There were no differences in weight, body composition, or bone mineral density between the groups at any time point.

http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=745937

Comparative Effects of Low-Carbohydrate High-Protein Versus Low-Fat Diets on the Kidney

Urinary calcium excretion increased at 3 (36.1%) and 12 (35.7%) months without changes in bone density or clinical presentations of new kidney stones.

http://cjasn.asnjournals.org/content/ea ... 1.full.pdf

 

[WhitbyJet]

Thanks for the input.
I take my hat off to you and the medical team supporting your decisions.[/quote]

Thank you Douglas, I am doing my level best to be healthy, the only food group that I cut out are sugar and grains.
Look here, I am listing the nutrients found in grains and these nutrients are also found in the low carb foods I consume on a regular basis.

Iron =
meat, green leafy vegetables, Squash and Pumpkin Seeds, Other Seeds High in Iron (%RDA per ounce (28g)): Sesame (23%), Sunflower (11%), and Flax (9%), Nuts (Cashew, Pine, Hazelnut, Peanut, Almond), Dark Chocolate and Cocoa Powder, Tofu

magnesium =
Dark Leafy Greens, Nuts and Seeds, Fish (Mackerel), Avocados, Dark Chocolate 1 square = 95mg (24% RDA)

phosphorus =
Pumpkin and Squash Seeds, Sunflower, Chia and Flaxseeds, cheese, salmon, tuna, nuts, tofu, cocoa powder

zinc =
Beef and Lamb, Spinach, Pumpkin and Squash Seeds, Sunflower, Chia and Flaxseeds, Nuts, mushrooms

copper =
Liver (Pâté), Sesame Seeds, Cocoa Powder, Nuts, Sunflower Seeds, Roasted Pumpkin and Squash Seeds, Dried Herbs esp basil, marjoram, oregano, savory, thyme and parsley

manganese =
Spices and Herbs, esp cloves, cardamom, ground ginger, cinnamon, dry spearmint, parsley, bay leaf, tarragon, turmeric, dry coriander, and dried marjoram, Nuts (Hazelnuts, Pine Nuts, Pecans), Cocoa Powder and Dark Chocolate, Roasted Pumpkin and Squash Seeds, Flax, Sesame Seeds, Chili Powder, Sunflower Seeds

selenium =
Brazil Nuts, Mixed Nuts , Cashews and Macadamia Nuts, Fish, Sunflower seeds, Chia Seeds, Sesame Seeds, Flaxseeds, Pumpkin and Squash Seeds, meat and mushrooms
thiamine = sesame seeds, sunflower seeds, herbs and spices esp coriander, sage, poppyseed, thyme, paprika, rosemary, nuts and fish

riboflavin =
Liver, Dried Herbs, Spices, and Peppers, almonds, Swiss Cheese also Roquefort, Brie, Fish (Mackerel, Atlantic Salmon, Trout), Sesame Seeds, Sun-dried Tomatoes

niacin =
Fish, chicken, turkey, liver, beef, mushrooms, sunflower seeds avocado

pyridoxine =
Dried Herbs and Spices (Chili powder contains the most vitamin B6 with 3.67mg of vitamin B6 per 100g serving or 0.294mg (15% RDA) per tablespoon. Chili powder is followed by paprika with 0.28mg (14% RDA) per tablespoon, garlic powder 12% RDA per tablespoon, dried tarragon (6% RDA), dried sage (3% RDA), dried spearmint (3% RDA), basil, chives, savory, turmeric, bay leaves, rosemary, dill, onion powder, oregano, and marjoram (1% RDA per tablespoon), Pistachios, Garlic, liver, Fish (Tuna, Salmon, and Cod), Sunflower and Sesame Seeds, pork, hazelnuts

folic acid =
Spinach, Pak Choi, Savoy Cabbage, Collard Greens, Asparagus. Lettuce, avocado, walnuts, broccoli


I eat a varied diet, I dont feel that I am missing out on anything, I enjoy my food, I eat plenty of red/purple/green/yellow and orange fruit and veg every day, the good fats and protein, not to excess. I drink water and herbal or fruit teas, occasionally a glass of wine, sometimes two.

I was on a strict ketogenic diet for the first 18 months, under medical supervision, 20g carbs per day, since then I increased to 50g and I am feeling really good on it.

Over the years I have educated myself on nutrition, and I have only praise for my doctors here and in Sweden, they listen to me, I listen to them, so far so good. I would be upset if I had to give up my lchf lifestyle.

 

[douglas99]

As a type 2 I really don't think low level ketones on a low carb diet are any cause for concern but of course that's just my opinion. Thanks to my friend google I found a couple of low carb studies that among the results show the effects on bone density, there are other shorter term studies that reach the same conclusions.

Weight and Metabolic Outcomes After 2 Years on a Low-Carbohydrate Versus Low-Fat Diet: A Randomized Trial

Weight loss was approximately 11 kg (11%) at 1 year and 7 kg (7%) at 2 years. There were no differences in weight, body composition, or bone mineral density between the groups at any time point.

http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=745937

Comparative Effects of Low-Carbohydrate High-Protein Versus Low-Fat Diets on the Kidney

Urinary calcium excretion increased at 3 (36.1%) and 12 (35.7%) months without changes in bone density or clinical presentations of new kidney stones.

http://cjasn.asnjournals.org/content/ea ... 1.full.pdf

Short term for weight loss isn't the issue.

It's the same study, and notably

"After 3 months, participants in the low-carbohydrate diet group increased their carbohydrate intake (5 g/d per wk) until a stable and desired weight was achieved."

So short term low carb, and unknown after 3 months,

And as you quote,

"Urinary calcium excretion increased at 3 (36.1%) and 12 (35.7%)months without changes in bone density or clinical presentations
of new kidney stones."

But in the full report
"The propensity of the low-carbohydrate high-protein diet
to increase urinary calcium excretion confirms previous
observational and interventional data in lean individuals
linking increased protein intake and urinary calcium excretion
to a higher risk for calcium-based stones (45,48,49).
Urinary calcium excretion is increased through enhanced
urinary acid output and GFR, impaired renal tubular calcium
reabsorption, reduced citrate excretion, and calcium
trapping by urinary sulfate and phosphate (45,50–52). It is
also possible that the urinary excretion of negatively
charged ketones also contributes by obligating urinary
loss of cations such as calcium. Of importance, a lowcarbohydrate
high-protein diet was not linked to adverse
effects (e.g., clinical presentations of new kidney stones or
diminished bone mineral density) (8). However, whether
such a diet is riskier in higher-risk populations (e.g., those
with a strong family history of nephrolithiasis, previous
stones, or renal osteodystrophy) is an area ripe for future
research."

Or possibly a longer term very low carb diet, which is what we are talking about.

 

[Etty]

Your full report is talking about a lowcarb HIGH-PROTEIN diet, not a lowcarb MODERATE-protein diet as recommended by Phinney and Volek, Bernstein and others. Anyone with concerns about the reputed side effects should read PHinney and Volek's book "The Art and Science of Low Carb Living" to put their minds at rest.

 

[fatbird]

Your full report is talking about a lowcarb HIGH-PROTEIN diet, not a lowcarb MODERATE-protein diet as recommended by Phinney and Volek, Bernstein and others. Anyone with concerns about the reputed side effects should read PHinney and Volek's book "The Art and Science of Low Carb Living" to put their minds at rest.

Agree low carb high protein is very different from low carb high fat. Low carb high fat moderate protein is optimum. :thumbup:

FB

 

[douglas99]

Your full report is talking about a lowcarb HIGH-PROTEIN diet, not a lowcarb MODERATE-protein diet as recommended by Phinney and Volek, Bernstein and others. Anyone with concerns about the reputed side effects should read PHinney and Volek's book "The Art and Science of Low Carb Living" to put their minds at rest.

Agree low carb high protein is very different from low carb high fat. Low carb high fat moderate protein is optimum. :thumbup:

FB

Source for that statement?

 

[douglas99]

Your full report is talking about a lowcarb HIGH-PROTEIN diet, not a lowcarb MODERATE-protein diet as recommended by Phinney and Volek, Bernstein and others. Anyone with concerns about the reputed side effects should read PHinney and Volek's book "The Art and Science of Low Carb Living" to put their minds at rest.

"The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living" Low carb diets are natriuretic - they make the kidneys dump sodium. Sodium deficiency can cause headache, dizziness and fatigue. With continued low carb intake and sodium restriction, at some point your kidneys start to excrete potassium in order to conserve sodium. Potassium deficiency can lead to muscle cramps, cardiac dysrythmia. it can also cause the body to lose muscle, even when there's plenty of protein in the diet.


Haven't got a quote for calcium to hand, if you have the book handy, maybe you could oblige?

But I think this topic has been done to death.
We're all intelligent, the information is there to let us make informed choices.
Oddly enough my diet is very similar to Whitby Jet.
A lot less nuts and seeds, a lot less fat, and more carbs that I tolerate.
But the same basic list of foods in there.

 

[fatbird]

It is true that some parts of some brain cells can only burn glucose, but fortunately our bodies can turn protein into glucose through a process known as gluconeogenesis. This fact means that while there are essential requirements for both fat or protein (meaning we would die without eating at least some fat and at least some protein), we can live quite happily while consuming no carbohydrate at all. That's not saying there aren't some disadvantages or side effects to a so-called "zero carb" diet, but it won't cause the massive health problems and death that consuming zero fat or zero protein would.

All of us who are metabolically healthy will shift into some amount of ketosis, typically overnight while we are sleeping. If your breath is a little funky when you wake up, and your urine smells a bit strong, you may well be in ketosis, which, unless you are a poorly controlled diabetic (a different kind of pathologic ketosis occurs in uncontrolled diabetes), being in ketosis in the morning is a good sign of a healthy metabolism.

And now let's really get down to the mitochondrial level. Mitochondria are the power plants of our cells, where all the energy is produced (as ATP). Now, when I was taught about biochemical fuel-burning, I was taught that glucose was "clean" and ketones were "smokey." That glucose was clearly the preferred fuel for our muscles for exercise and definitely the key fuel for the brain. Except here's the dirty little secret about glucose - when you look at the amount of garbage leftover in the mitochondria, it is actually less efficient to make ATP from glucose than it is to make ATP from ketone bodies! A more efficient energy supply makes it easier to restore membranes in the brain to their normal states after a depolarizing electrical energy spike occurs, and means that energy is produced with fewer destructive free radicals leftover.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evo ... in-ketones

FB

 

[tonyS54]

Your full report is talking about a lowcarb HIGH-PROTEIN diet, not a lowcarb MODERATE-protein diet as recommended by Phinney and Volek, Bernstein and others. Anyone with concerns about the reputed side effects should read PHinney and Volek's book "The Art and Science of Low Carb Living" to put their minds at rest.

Yes I know the point was this study showed the effect of low carb on bone turnover which is why I included it, I'm no fan of a high protein diet I've been HFLC for the past four years.

Actually I posted a Steve Phinney video earlier on this thread "The Art and Science of Nutritional Ketosis"
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=49502&start=80#p446630

Steve Phinney does follow a HFLC so his personal experience is invaluable in the assessment of nutritional ketosis.

Taken from a transcript of an interview

I stay between 25 and 50 grams of carbohydrate a day. I eat a moderate amount of protein. It’s not a high-protein diet. I eat 2800 calories a day, and so if moderate protein is 500 to 600 calories a day and carbohydrate is around 100 calories a day, I’m eating over 2,000 calories of fat to maintain my body weight. I run in the 70 – 80% of energy intake as fat.

http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2011/04/ ... high-carb/

Besides Volek he also mentions he's collaborated with a Dr Wortman a type 2 low carb diabetic which would have given Phinney an insight into diabetes.

 

[Etty]

"The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living" Low carb diets are natriuretic - they make the kidneys dump sodium. Sodium deficiency can cause headache, dizziness and fatigue. With continued low carb intake and sodium restriction, at some point your kidneys start to excrete potassium in order to conserve sodium. Potassium deficiency can lead to muscle cramps, cardiac dysrythmia. it can also cause the body to lose muscle, even when there's plenty of protein in the diet.

One of the many pleasures of the diet is that you can eat more salt- P and V recommend for the first few weeks that you salt your food well or take broth made from stock cubes in boiling water, daily. There is no evidence for damage to bones on the level of protein advised in LCHF diets. It's well worth buying the book and reading it carefully, it's full of useful information.

 

[tonyS54]

"After 3 months, participants in the low-carbohydrate diet group increased their carbohydrate intake (5 g/d per wk) until a stable and desired weight was achieved."

So short term low carb, and unknown after 3 months,

Obviously without access to the full study we can only speculate the carb intake at the end of the study but as the rise in HDL 20% above baseline was maintained throughout the study this would suggest the carb intake must still have been low side. High HDL is common for those of us following a HFLC diet.

Of importance, a lowcarbohydrate
high-protein diet was not linked to adverse
effects (e.g., clinical presentations of new kidney stones or
diminished bone mineral density) (8). However, whether
such a diet is riskier in higher-risk populations (e.g., those
with a strong family history of nephrolithiasis, previous
stones, or renal osteodystrophy) is an area ripe for future
research."

Or possibly a longer term very low carb diet, which is what we are talking about.

Yes that would make sense for those in the high risk population, but they were emphatic in stating the diet was not linked to adverse effects apart from the high risk group.