One thing this thread has shown me is how difficult it is to find out the exact results of the Newcastle Study and exactly how many such studies have been undertaken.
The first the "Counterpoint" study seems to have had 29 participants with varying lengths of time of having Type 2.
This was I think funded by Noro Nordisk
We then get the 11 person study which seems to have been funded by Diabetes UK which I believe is the one referred to by @Djstevesire although that is far from clear.
Now there is the Direct study which is comparing the Low Cal diet with the standard Eatwell plate (I think).
I'll try and e-mail Prof Taylor tomorrow and see if I can get a definitive answer from him.
I think 'eating normally again' is interpreted by many as https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ent_data/file/528193/Eatwell_guide_colour.pdfView attachment 21738
Ands say there are people that have not went back to be diabetic and eat whatever they want within reason..7 out of 10
"They went back to eating normally" being that they where obese to begin with what do you think normally means..they weren't following lchf or low calorie.. they where eating whatever they wanted..
There's a good possibility the 2-3 that became diabetic again where eating very poorly or not exercising. This has actually been documented that people who severely restrict calories or food groups rebound and gain a lot of weight back by going right back to their old eating habits.
Finally we are in agreementThat is my exact point it's almost like they hide this information..
They can't sell you anything if all you have to do is fast for a week or so
You can search on Google. Look for
"Pubmed reversal diabetes"
Also "ncbi diabettes reversal"
How do you know the visceral fat measurement? Just as a matter of interest. ThanksYes I ate mince pies, Stollen, and (dark) chocolate over Christmas too (not Xmas pudding as I'm not that keen on it), but in smaller quantities than I would have before. and I put on 3 lbs, worse my visceral fat went up from 7 to 8..
And in January I am very low carbing, eating mainly just soup in the evening to get my bs and weight down before my next HbA1c test in March.
I think 'eating normally again' is interpreted by many as https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ent_data/file/528193/Eatwell_guide_colour.pdf
This is what most Western Governments tell their citizens is good for them.
Now I know for sure if I was to eat that way I might as well buy a sharp saw and start amputating my own feet
How do you know the visceral fat measurement? Just as a matter of interest. Thanks
This isn't about anyone's diet being better this is about identifying a cure..
The definition of cured or reversed means you no longer have symptoms of t2d because your body is working correctly
While we all
May be different .. we all got here the same way...
Overeating ... mostly fructose and simple sugars. Paired with a lack of exercise.
Thank youLar, wouldn't want to answer for @Prem51 , but I do believe Prem uses a scale using bioelectrical impedence to assess that. That's how I do mine.
I can't say where my visceral fat was at the outset of my journey as I deliberately didn't weigh myself, in favour of concentrating on lowering blood sugar scores. Due to being overseas for some months, I had no ready access to scales of any description; only finding some, very basic analogue ones, in a hardware store about 3 months in.
During my ownership of my scales (Omron BF511) my own visceral fat (VF) has reduced from 4 to 3 (on a scale of 0-30). At just under 4 months, my HbA1c had reduced from 73 to 37, and my clothes were very ill-fitting to be kind. I clearly started at greater then 4.
To date, my VF hasn't varied from 3. I keep an eye on it, weekly.
Bioelectrical impedence scales can vary in their accuracy, but those with hand grasps, as well as foot plates tend to be a bit more accurate, due to measuring the current through feet and hands. To be fair, I'd say it's the fingerprick testing of the weight/fat/muscle/BMI world, but for trends it really eased my mind, without shelling out for multiple MRI or DEXA scans.
Hopefully, Prem will respond when they're next online.
You may haven found the missingFrom the link in the OP's 1st post Bold text is my emphasis
Participants Individuals with type 2 diabetes (age 35–65 years, HbA1c 6.5–9.0% [48–75 mmol/mol], diabetes duration <4 years, stable BMI 25–45 kg/m2) were recruited. Participants were excluded if being treated with thiazolidinediones, insulin, steroids or beta-blockers, with a serum creatinine >150 mmol/l, with a serum alanine transaminase level >2.5-fold above the upper limit of the reference range, or if there were contraindications for MRI. Statin therapy was continued. The study protocol was approved by the Newcastle upon Tyne Ethics Committee No. 2, and all participants gave their informed consent. Sulfonylurea (two individuals) was discontinued 2 months, and metformin (seven individuals) 1 week, before the baseline study. Dietary adherence was assessed using capillary ketone levels (Xceed Optium; Abbott Diabetes Care, Maidenhead, UK). Three individuals failed to comply with the diet (two during the first week and one during weeks 4–8), and one left the study for an unrelated medical reason. Hence 11 individuals (nine male and two female, age 49.5 ± 2.5 years) completed the study.Nine control participants matched for weight, age and sex were also studied (seven male, two female, age 49.7 ± 2.5 years; Table 1). These participants had no family history of diabetes, were taking no medication and had normal glucose metabolism as confirmed by a standard 75 g OGTT.
So this is a part of a Newcastle Study, though I am not clear which one, as the study report I am familiar with had a sucess rate of 40%. The candidates were very carefully selected, none had had the condition for more than 4 years and and HbA1c no higher than 9%
Most importantly medication was discontinued prior to the start. not sure were in the world you are @Djstevesire but no one should discontinue their medication without consulting, and with guidance from a Health Care Professional.
I totally agree that such methods should become more widely known, and in that respect you are preaching to the converted.
No one is having a go at the message you are trying to convey, but are taking exception to your assertion that those who haven't achieved success have somehow been doing it wrong. Does 'doing it wrong' apply to those whose starting position is an HbA1c of >100, and have clearly not been covered in the study?
Ok and what about that? That's not an insult.. and again you wasting time with ad hominem attacks and directing the concersatuon that way...Your words. If you want to keep this purely about the ND, dont chuck other **** into the mix. I suggest you go back and read what you've written.
As for agenda..I've had normal A1c's for years now, no symptoms of diabetes. I was quite happy to stay out of this thread until I saw the remarks you made, such as what you wrote above.
The part where you say, and I quote "while we all may be different, we all got here the same way.
Overeating..mostly fructose and simple sugars. Paired with a lack of exercise"
You are wrong. End of.
I use the same scales as @AndBreathe , the Omron BF511. I don't know what my visceral fat was like before when I was over 12 st. But when I started measuring it was at 7, dropped to 6 occasionally, and went up to 8 after Christmas. It will be interesting to see whether it has reduced this month when I get home. The 'normal' range is 1-12.How do you know the visceral fat measurement? Just as a matter of interest. Thanks
The study I pasted in the begginingWhich study was this? Do you have a link please?
Cos it isnt this one https://campus.recap.ncl.ac.uk/Panopto/Pages/Viewer.aspx?id=c3bef819-e5f4-4a55-876f-0a23436988ed which is the study many are referring to in this thread. Of course a study where n=11 is statistically irrelevant. Your claim that a VLCD is the holy grail and 100% successful is flawed purely on the basis of so few participants,and is what has put many peoples backs up
Thanks for the infoI use the same scales as @AndBreathe , the Omron BF511. I don't know what my visceral fat was like before when I was over 12 st. But when I started measuring it was at 7, dropped to 6 occasionally, and went up to 8 after Christmas. It will be interesting to see whether it has reduced this month when I get home. The 'normal' range is 1-12.
I bought this model as it had good reviews on amazon. There are more expensive scales which apparently also give you figures for your arms and legs (?!) and left and right sides of your body. I didn't need all that, but it seems they are useful for bodybuilders.
you see thisEnding weight after 8 weeks or ending weight of the individual's weight at reversal state? Huge difference!
Weight loss may indicate a lot but individual weight status is irrespective. We are all different.
Percentage of weight loss might be more transparent?
Anyway, prof is doing more in his study so I'll just wait for his findings. Until then I'll stay signed up for bariatric surgery just in case.
Exactly and that is part of the problem.. how is this stil the recommendation!I think 'eating normally again' is interpreted by many as https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ent_data/file/528193/Eatwell_guide_colour.pdf
This is what most Western Governments tell their citizens is good for them.
Now I know for sure if I was to eat that way I might as well buy a sharp saw and start amputating my own feet
While we all
May be different .. we all got here the same way...
Overeating ... mostly fructose and simple sugars. Paired with a lack of exercise.
i have a bmi of 27.3 in this photo .. it's a horrible way to measure ones self.. you should go by bodyfat percentage...
People store fat diffeeently ... it may just be that you store more viseral
Fat
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