There is a cure.. how come nobody does this?

[Djstevesire]

One thing this thread has shown me is how difficult it is to find out the exact results of the Newcastle Study and exactly how many such studies have been undertaken.

The first the "Counterpoint" study seems to have had 29 participants with varying lengths of time of having Type 2.
This was I think funded by Noro Nordisk

We then get the 11 person study which seems to have been funded by Diabetes UK which I believe is the one referred to by @Djstevesire although that is far from clear.

Now there is the Direct study which is comparing the Low Cal diet with the standard Eatwell plate (I think).

I'll try and e-mail Prof Taylor tomorrow and see if I can get a definitive answer from him.

That is my exact point it's almost like they hide this information..
They can't sell you anything if all you have to do is fast for a week or so

You can search on Google. Look for
"Pubmed reversal diabetes"
Also "ncbi diabettes reversal"

 

[walnut_face]

View attachment 21738


Ands say there are people that have not went back to be diabetic and eat whatever they want within reason..7 out of 10

"They went back to eating normally" being that they where obese to begin with what do you think normally means..they weren't following lchf or low calorie.. they where eating whatever they wanted..

There's a good possibility the 2-3 that became diabetic again where eating very poorly or not exercising. This has actually been documented that people who severely restrict calories or food groups rebound and gain a lot of weight back by going right back to their old eating habits.

I think 'eating normally again' is interpreted by many as https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ent_data/file/528193/Eatwell_guide_colour.pdf
This is what most Western Governments tell their citizens is good for them.
Now I know for sure if I was to eat that way I might as well buy a sharp saw and start amputating my own feet

 

[walnut_face]

That is my exact point it's almost like they hide this information..
They can't sell you anything if all you have to do is fast for a week or so

You can search on Google. Look for
"Pubmed reversal diabetes"
Also "ncbi diabettes reversal"

Finally we are in agreement

 

[Djstevesire]

Very interesting!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3609491/

 

[LAR]

Yes I ate mince pies, Stollen, and (dark) chocolate over Christmas too (not Xmas pudding as I'm not that keen on it), but in smaller quantities than I would have before. and I put on 3 lbs, worse my visceral fat went up from 7 to 8..
And in January I am very low carbing, eating mainly just soup in the evening to get my bs and weight down before my next HbA1c test in March.

How do you know the visceral fat measurement? Just as a matter of interest. Thanks

 

[douglas99]

I think 'eating normally again' is interpreted by many as https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ent_data/file/528193/Eatwell_guide_colour.pdf
This is what most Western Governments tell their citizens is good for them.
Now I know for sure if I was to eat that way I might as well buy a sharp saw and start amputating my own feet

Yes, that'll be normal for me now.
Generally with a more Mediterranean bias though.

 

[AndBreathe]

How do you know the visceral fat measurement? Just as a matter of interest. Thanks

Lar, wouldn't want to answer for @Prem51 , but I do believe Prem uses a scale using bioelectrical impedence to assess that. That's how I do mine.

I can't say where my visceral fat was at the outset of my journey as I deliberately didn't weigh myself, in favour of concentrating on lowering blood sugar scores. Due to being overseas for some months, I had no ready access to scales of any description; only finding some, very basic analogue ones, in a hardware store about 3 months in.

During my ownership of my scales (Omron BF511) my own visceral fat (VF) has reduced from 4 to 3 (on a scale of 0-30). At just under 4 months, my HbA1c had reduced from 73 to 37, and my clothes were very ill-fitting to be kind. I clearly started at greater then 4.

To date, my VF hasn't varied from 3. I keep an eye on it, weekly.

Bioelectrical impedence scales can vary in their accuracy, but those with hand grasps, as well as foot plates tend to be a bit more accurate, due to measuring the current through feet and hands. To be fair, I'd say it's the fingerprick testing of the weight/fat/muscle/BMI world, but for trends it really eased my mind, without shelling out for multiple MRI or DEXA scans.

Hopefully, Prem will respond when they're next online.

 

[ladybird64]

This isn't about anyone's diet being better this is about identifying a cure..

The definition of cured or reversed means you no longer have symptoms of t2d because your body is working correctly

While we all
May be different .. we all got here the same way...

Overeating ... mostly fructose and simple sugars. Paired with a lack of exercise.

Your words. If you want to keep this purely about the ND, dont chuck other **** into the mix. I suggest you go back and read what you've written.

As for agenda..I've had normal A1c's for years now, no symptoms of diabetes. I was quite happy to stay out of this thread until I saw the remarks you made, such as what you wrote above.
The part where you say, and I quote "while we all may be different, we all got here the same way.
Overeating..mostly fructose and simple sugars. Paired with a lack of exercise"

You are wrong. End of.

 

[LAR]

Lar, wouldn't want to answer for @Prem51 , but I do believe Prem uses a scale using bioelectrical impedence to assess that. That's how I do mine.

I can't say where my visceral fat was at the outset of my journey as I deliberately didn't weigh myself, in favour of concentrating on lowering blood sugar scores. Due to being overseas for some months, I had no ready access to scales of any description; only finding some, very basic analogue ones, in a hardware store about 3 months in.

During my ownership of my scales (Omron BF511) my own visceral fat (VF) has reduced from 4 to 3 (on a scale of 0-30). At just under 4 months, my HbA1c had reduced from 73 to 37, and my clothes were very ill-fitting to be kind. I clearly started at greater then 4.

To date, my VF hasn't varied from 3. I keep an eye on it, weekly.

Bioelectrical impedence scales can vary in their accuracy, but those with hand grasps, as well as foot plates tend to be a bit more accurate, due to measuring the current through feet and hands. To be fair, I'd say it's the fingerprick testing of the weight/fat/muscle/BMI world, but for trends it really eased my mind, without shelling out for multiple MRI or DEXA scans.

Hopefully, Prem will respond when they're next online.

Thank you

 

[Djstevesire]

From the link in the OP's 1st post Bold text is my emphasis

Participants Individuals with type 2 diabetes (age 35–65 years, HbA1c 6.5–9.0% [48–75 mmol/mol], diabetes duration <4 years, stable BMI 25–45 kg/m2) were recruited. Participants were excluded if being treated with thiazolidinediones, insulin, steroids or beta-blockers, with a serum creatinine >150 mmol/l, with a serum alanine transaminase level >2.5-fold above the upper limit of the reference range, or if there were contraindications for MRI. Statin therapy was continued. The study protocol was approved by the Newcastle upon Tyne Ethics Committee No. 2, and all participants gave their informed consent. Sulfonylurea (two individuals) was discontinued 2 months, and metformin (seven individuals) 1 week, before the baseline study. Dietary adherence was assessed using capillary ketone levels (Xceed Optium; Abbott Diabetes Care, Maidenhead, UK). Three individuals failed to comply with the diet (two during the first week and one during weeks 4–8), and one left the study for an unrelated medical reason. Hence 11 individuals (nine male and two female, age 49.5 ± 2.5 years) completed the study.Nine control participants matched for weight, age and sex were also studied (seven male, two female, age 49.7 ± 2.5 years; Table 1). These participants had no family history of diabetes, were taking no medication and had normal glucose metabolism as confirmed by a standard 75 g OGTT.

So this is a part of a Newcastle Study, though I am not clear which one, as the study report I am familiar with had a sucess rate of 40%. The candidates were very carefully selected, none had had the condition for more than 4 years and and HbA1c no higher than 9%
Most importantly medication was discontinued prior to the start. not sure were in the world you are @Djstevesire but no one should discontinue their medication without consulting, and with guidance from a Health Care Professional.
I totally agree that such methods should become more widely known, and in that respect you are preaching to the converted.
No one is having a go at the message you are trying to convey, but are taking exception to your assertion that those who haven't achieved success have somehow been doing it wrong. Does 'doing it wrong' apply to those whose starting position is an HbA1c of >100, and have clearly not been covered in the study?

You may haven found the missing
Link. That they where taken off the drugs prior to the study...

So a person following the method while still taking meds may in fact not have the same results. As those drugs do affect the body and blood glucose and also have side effects...

That may be indeed the part that individuals trying this on their own "got wrong".they need to be off there's medications. To let the body heal on its own.. obviously you would want to do this medically supervised.. what do you guys think?

 

[Djstevesire]

Your words. If you want to keep this purely about the ND, dont chuck other **** into the mix. I suggest you go back and read what you've written.

As for agenda..I've had normal A1c's for years now, no symptoms of diabetes. I was quite happy to stay out of this thread until I saw the remarks you made, such as what you wrote above.
The part where you say, and I quote "while we all may be different, we all got here the same way.
Overeating..mostly fructose and simple sugars. Paired with a lack of exercise"

You are wrong. End of.

Ok and what about that? That's not an insult.. and again you wasting time with ad hominem attacks and directing the concersatuon that way...

If whomever stood to the topic and not coming up with personal attacks out of nowhere then that response wouldn't have existed.. how did you get t2d anyhow?

 

[Prem51]

How do you know the visceral fat measurement? Just as a matter of interest. Thanks

I use the same scales as @AndBreathe , the Omron BF511. I don't know what my visceral fat was like before when I was over 12 st. But when I started measuring it was at 7, dropped to 6 occasionally, and went up to 8 after Christmas. It will be interesting to see whether it has reduced this month when I get home. The 'normal' range is 1-12.
I bought this model as it had good reviews on amazon. There are more expensive scales which apparently also give you body fat figures for your arms and legs (?!) and left and right sides of your body. I didn't need all that, but it seems they are useful for bodybuilders.

 

[Djstevesire]

Which study was this? Do you have a link please?
Cos it isnt this one https://campus.recap.ncl.ac.uk/Panopto/Pages/Viewer.aspx?id=c3bef819-e5f4-4a55-876f-0a23436988ed which is the study many are referring to in this thread. Of course a study where n=11 is statistically irrelevant. Your claim that a VLCD is the holy grail and 100% successful is flawed purely on the basis of so few participants,and is what has put many peoples backs up

The study I pasted in the beggining
11 out of 11 had Normal blood glucose at the end of the study...

That is 100 percent of the people involved had normal readings...

Fast forward 3 months I believe 2 out of 11 got diabetes again. Those are great numbers..

But the fact remains that 11 out of 11 where essentially cured by the end of the study

Mind you this study was to simulate what happens to bariatric surgery patients who have a 90% reversal of t2d.

Sometimes you have to read in between the lines..

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3609491/

 

[LAR]

I use the same scales as @AndBreathe , the Omron BF511. I don't know what my visceral fat was like before when I was over 12 st. But when I started measuring it was at 7, dropped to 6 occasionally, and went up to 8 after Christmas. It will be interesting to see whether it has reduced this month when I get home. The 'normal' range is 1-12.
I bought this model as it had good reviews on amazon. There are more expensive scales which apparently also give you figures for your arms and legs (?!) and left and right sides of your body. I didn't need all that, but it seems they are useful for bodybuilders.

Thanks for the info

 

[Djstevesire]

But did

Ending weight after 8 weeks or ending weight of the individual's weight at reversal state? Huge difference!

Weight loss may indicate a lot but individual weight status is irrespective. We are all different.
Percentage of weight loss might be more transparent?

Anyway, prof is doing more in his study so I'll just wait for his findings. Until then I'll stay signed up for bariatric surgery just in case.

you see this
The results started from the first week..
Maybe only a week or two is actually nessacary..

 

[Djstevesire]

I think 'eating normally again' is interpreted by many as https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ent_data/file/528193/Eatwell_guide_colour.pdf
This is what most Western Governments tell their citizens is good for them.
Now I know for sure if I was to eat that way I might as well buy a sharp saw and start amputating my own feet

Exactly and that is part of the problem.. how is this stil the recommendation!
Many changes need to happen and it seems the FDA and the medical field is sitting on their hands!

 

[Djstevesire]

I just came across this article it's a good read.. and has a study that has had people with over 20 years t2d reverse

Also it brings up the point I was looking at.. how those that had BARIATRIC surgery had reversed their T2D BEFORE any weight loss occurred. Incredibly interesting...

https://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/well/2016/04/18/hope-for-reversing-type-2-diabetes/?referer=

 

[Djstevesire]

Here is a direct link to the study...
Do you think they had less success because they allowed meds to be taken?

I believe in the study with ink 11 people no mess where taken.

Thoughts?

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/39/5/808

 

[Tophat1900]

While we all
May be different .. we all got here the same way...

Overeating ... mostly fructose and simple sugars. Paired with a lack of exercise.

I think that is mostly true for a lot of t2 diabetic people, but certainly not all. We didn't all get here the same way.

i have a bmi of 27.3 in this photo .. it's a horrible way to measure ones self.. you should go by bodyfat percentage...

People store fat diffeeently ... it may just be that you store more viseral
Fat

IMO, bmi isn't worth the paper it is printed on. Bodyfat % is a far better measurement to go by for health. BMI doesn't give you anything worth looking at, does not take into account bodyfat%, distribution, age, genetics etc, or any of the measurements that are a true measurement of ones health and risks. Although it is more convenient for health care systems because all you have to do is stand on a scale and get your height measured... it's quick. Doing a body fat measurement, even just a 3 point check takes longer. Patient has to open shirt etc which the points are measured and should be remeasured several times to ensure accuracy. I think the US adopted the BMI and everyone else just followed suit. Just like the dietary guidelines. Which are horrible.

 

[Mep]

From the info provided about this study, it is hardly a snapshot of type 2 diabetics. They've selected a small handful of diabetics and made sure they're not taking medications and that they've had diabetes less than 5 years. So chances of these diabetics having beta cell damage is next to zero. With only 2 females in the study it doesn't give any true reflections on whether it would work for all females with diabetes. I can tell you I've done the 800 calorie VLCD previously and yes it does lower your blood sugar and I didn't feel too well on that diet at all. It was particularly hard when my hormones changed and my blood sugars went nuts anyhow. So to me this study is like a drop in the ocean and not a study that can say we know how to reverse or 'cure' diabetes. But as I mentioned before the bottom line is if you change your diet to control sugar levels then good... means your controlling your diabetes. I'm not sure why people like to use words that do not reflect the true picture such as 'reversed' and 'cure'. Perhaps go back to eating what you used to eat prior to diagnosis and then monitor your sugar levels and if you have sugar levels in the normal range all the time then freely use those words. Otherwise it is good BGL control and that's all.