To resign or to get sacked?!

searley said:

You are going to get covid anyway... It has been clearly stated more than 80 percent will get it.

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It has been clearly stated? Where was that then? Was that made by the same guy who said the NHS was well prepared? It is not possible to make a long term forecast, so who really knows.

Maybe that's why so many people are walking about like nothing is happening, totally irresponsible in my opinion. The lock down measures were imposed as a result of an estimate from Imperial College that 40 million people would catch the virus in the UK, nowhere near 80%. The measures were imposed so that we don't get near that figure.

Forecasts are being made in the short term. Some forecasts from Imperial College London:
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/mrc-glob...-analysis/covid-19/covid-19-weekly-forecasts/

Based on the central trends in the forecasts, the total number of reported deaths in the coming week is expected to be:
Even in the short term the estimates are relatively vague.

• Relatively small in 14 countries (<100 deaths)
  (Argentina, China, Czech Republic, Dominican Republic, Egypt, Greece, Iraq, Japan, Luxembourg, Malaysia, Morocco, Norway, Panama, South Korea)
• Relatively large in 15 countries (100 to 1000 deaths)
  (Austria, Canada, Denmark, Ecuador, India, Indonesia, Ireland, Israel, Mexico, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Sweden)
• Large in 8 countries (1,000 to 5,000 deaths)
  (Algeria, Belgium, Brazil, Germany, Iran, Netherlands, Switzerland, Turkey)
• Very large in 5 countries (> 5,000 deaths)
  (France, Italy, Spain, United Kingdom, United States of America)
  
  
  

Morning all. If I've followed this correctly, the original question concerned schools opening within the next week or so, and this being done before full lockdown was lifted. As many have stated this is incredibly unlikely given the daily number of deaths. The lockdown is in place to prevent health services from being overwhelmed. Many are currently overwhelmed, so it is unrealistic to discuss easing lockdown measures. At the end of the day, the ideal situation is that there are beds and ventilators for everyone who might require them.

Given the fact that diabetes (all types) was listed in one of the first criteria for 'vulnerable' people, and continues to be, I find it very hard to believe that a school would force you back.
It all depends on your leadership, I was lucky enough to be contacted by my union rep and line managers instructing me to set cover and be available online to work remotely following the press briefing on the 16th March. The guidance clearly states those considered vulnerable should stringently follow social distancing measures for a period of 12 weeks. This includes working from home where possible.

Schools rely on children being in. If parents do not send their children in (as happened in the week I was sent home) then schools can merge classes and still be within safeguarding ratios of pupils:staff. They cannot force you back jeopardising your health as we are clearly in the 'vulnerable' group (agree with duty of care comments made previously) but they also especially wouldn't have a need to have you on site until they have enough pupils on site. I have friends who are supply cover teachers and would really be glad of the work!!

Don't resign *yet*. The situation of schools reopening is so hypothetical it isn't worth resigning. I strongly suspect any lifting in lockdown measures will firstly instruct those not on the vulnerable/extremely vulnerable lists to return to work in schools. Remember lots of pupils are in the vulnerable lists so would probably remain off.

Are the school explicitly aware of your conditions? I was asked to officially email (eventhough they already had records) and I can see on SIMS my status is *special leave* rather than usual sick leave. I am still completing tasks from home as everyone else is. All collegeaues without vulnerable medical status are expected to be available to teach children of key workers on site on a rota. My current understanding is that if you haven't self certified as either having symptoms or living with someone with symptoms and don't inform them of vulnerable medical status then you'll be put down as unpaid leave. This could obviously lead to disciplinary measures. They cannot pursue this if you're legitimately ill though... whether it be covid-19 symptoms or a doctor's or diabetes specialist or nurse providing a letter stating you should continue to work from home. Ignoring legitimate illness is discrimination. Just make sure you're completing tasks from home where possible (eg any planning/admin type stuff like I was asked to do when I had set cover the week of the 16th March).

We are strongly unionised, and I may be lucky in having a fab union rep, but don't underestimate the power of teaching unions. This is a completely hypothetical situation, and I don't honestly see health care providers being so much under capacity that schools open within the next week or so. We have been advised to stringently follow social distancing measures for 12 weeks if you're in the vulnerable category (all of us with diabetes) and there are so many trained teachers /supply/cover that I find it hard to believe they could argue they need us on site and we can't support remotely during this 12 week period. This is what my union rep and colleagues have also said. It is very early to be talking about resigning.

Ooh sorry long post! Got a bit carried away, sorry!

Just to clarify.


We are advising those who are at increased risk of severe illness from coronavirus (COVID-19) to be particularly stringent in following social distancing measures.
This group includes those who are:

• aged 70 or older (regardless of medical conditions)
• under 70 with an underlying health condition listed below (ie anyone instructed to get a flu jab as an adult each year on medical grounds):
  • chronic (long-term) respiratory diseases, such as asthma, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), emphysema or bronchitis
  • chronic heart disease, such as heart failure
  • chronic kidney disease
  • chronic liver disease, such as hepatitis
  • chronic neurological conditions, such as Parkinson’s disease, motor neurone disease, multiple sclerosis (MS), a learning disability or cerebral palsy
  • diabetes

No distinction as to type OR management level
Purely DIABETES


We are advising those who are at increased risk of severe illness from coronavirus (COVID-19) to be particularly stringent in following social distancing measures.

I would suspect a GP would
A. Be able to supply a letter/email to the effect you are in such a category
B. Also confirm that government advice.

Hard to see any employer, forcing one to work
Let alone a local authority.

However, I can't say all will be the best they can be

So I agree with previous poster.
Make sure they KNOW
Get it confirmed they KNOW

And for anyone in that position,
I would suggest a little planning now for your responses, just in case, might go a long way to helping get a more positive outcome.
And a little less stressed, if that time does come.

And @searley .
That was the govt position sadly until they looked into the true cost

I'm with @HSSS on this.

We could all go out and just try our best TO get covid... Some will survive but far too many will die. Remember the more the hospital's have to treat, the more of them risk dying of this too

Losing too many is not an option.

And if we fill the wards with covid patients many will die of the more mundane things we DO currently get treatment for.

So as a plan, the let's give the NHS staff a fighting chance by staying in as much as possible, certainly makes sense to me.

The longer we delay getting it, the better chances for the best possible medical care, better chances of medicines assisting and being useful, and the closer we all get to a vaccine of some sorts.

Stay safe and well.

Max68 said:

As ridiculous as this sounds it could well push a few of us into a corner at some point. I see in the news today some idiotic Government minister whose name conveniently doesn't appear in the article, has allegedly suggested that schools could reopen after Easter and that the closure of schools could be more damaging than the virus itself. Clearly someone who doesn't have to work in one!!

I do - and as a type 2 diabetic with high blood pressure, albeit relatively well controlled with meds, I, as many of you are in this group with seemingly very little advice. Not in the top high risk group but certainly not advised to go and plant a kiss on the first person you see!!

So a dilemma, which could be applied to any line of work. If (and I would be very surprised if they did) they did ask schools to reopen after Easter where would you stand as an employee who wouldn't want to take the risk? Schools are petri dishes at the best of times and most of our students come in via taxi, more petri dishes!! I'm not in the top high risk group so how would that go down with my rights to stay away, if indeed I have any? Regarding Universal Credit I believe resigning, in normal times, meant that you didn't qualify and again I'm not sure being sacked even qualifies you to receive such benefit?

Obviously these aren't normal times and one would hope that the school would show a duty of care and certain staff would not be forced back, but what if they were? What would you do?

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I work with SEN children, as a school escort. An email came through and asked if anyone would be willing and available to work over the Easter break, 2 weeks, so I put myself forward, to help any vulnerable children and key working parents. but I didn't get any work.
To answer your question, I would not want to resign, councils are aware of peoples medical conditions and the very high at risk vulnerable group, should not work, but isolate themselves.

GOV.UK
Coronavirus (COVID-19): what you need to do
Guidance on shielding and protecting people defined on medical grounds as extremely vulnerable from COVID-19
Updated 30 March 2020

Background and scope of guidance
This guidance is for people, including children, who are at very high risk of severe illness from coronavirus (COVID-19) because of an underlying health condition, and for their family, friends and carers. It is intended for use in situations where the extremely vulnerable person is living in their own home, with or without additional support. This includes the extremely clinically vulnerable people living in long-term care facilities, either for the elderly or persons with special needs.

Shielding is a measure to protect people who are clinically extremely vulnerable by minimising all interaction between those who are extremely vulnerable and others. We are strongly advising people with serious underlying health conditions (listed below), which put them at very high risk of severe illness from coronavirus (COVID-19), to rigorously follow shielding measures in order to keep themselves safe.

What do we mean by extremely vulnerable?
People falling into this extremely vulnerable group include:

1. Solid organ transplant recipients.
   
   
2. People with specific cancers:
   • people with cancer who are undergoing active chemotherapy
   • people with lung cancer who are undergoing radical radiotherapy
   • people with cancers of the blood or bone marrow such as leukaemia, lymphoma or myeloma who are at any stage of treatment
   • people having immunotherapy or other continuing antibody treatments for cancer
   • people having other targeted cancer treatments which can affect the immune system, such as protein kinase inhibitors or PARP inhibitors
   • people who have had bone marrow or stem cell transplants in the last 6 months, or who are still taking immunosuppression drugs
3. People with severe respiratory conditions including all cystic fibrosis, severe asthma and severe COPD.
   
   
4. People with rare diseases and inborn errors of metabolism that significantly increase the risk of infections (such as SCID, homozygous sickle cell).
   
   
5. People on immunosuppression therapies sufficient to significantly increase risk of infection.
   
   
6. Women who are pregnant with significant heart disease, congenital or acquired.

Shielding is for your personal protection. It is your choice to decide whether to follow the measures we advise. Individuals who have been given a prognosis of less than 6 months to live, and some others in special circumstances, could decide not to undertake shielding. This will be a deeply personal decision. We advise calling your GP or specialist to discuss this.

Robinredbreast said:

I work with SEN children, as a school escort. An email came through and asked if anyone would be willing and available to work over the Easter break, 2 weeks, so I put myself forward, to help any vulnerable children and key working parents. but I didn't get any work.
To answer your question, I would not want to resign, councils are aware of peoples medical conditions and the very high at risk vulnerable group, should not work, but isolate themselves.

GOV.UK
Coronavirus (COVID-19): what you need to do
Guidance on shielding and protecting people defined on medical grounds as extremely vulnerable from COVID-19
Updated 30 March 2020

Background and scope of guidance
This guidance is for people, including children, who are at very high risk of severe illness from coronavirus (COVID-19) because of an underlying health condition, and for their family, friends and carers. It is intended for use in situations where the extremely vulnerable person is living in their own home, with or without additional support. This includes the extremely clinically vulnerable people living in long-term care facilities, either for the elderly or persons with special needs.

Shielding is a measure to protect people who are clinically extremely vulnerable by minimising all interaction between those who are extremely vulnerable and others. We are strongly advising people with serious underlying health conditions (listed below), which put them at very high risk of severe illness from coronavirus (COVID-19), to rigorously follow shielding measures in order to keep themselves safe.

What do we mean by extremely vulnerable?
People falling into this extremely vulnerable group include:

1. Solid organ transplant recipients.
   
   
2. People with specific cancers:
   • people with cancer who are undergoing active chemotherapy
   • people with lung cancer who are undergoing radical radiotherapy
   • people with cancers of the blood or bone marrow such as leukaemia, lymphoma or myeloma who are at any stage of treatment
   • people having immunotherapy or other continuing antibody treatments for cancer
   • people having other targeted cancer treatments which can affect the immune system, such as protein kinase inhibitors or PARP inhibitors
   • people who have had bone marrow or stem cell transplants in the last 6 months, or who are still taking immunosuppression drugs
3. People with severe respiratory conditions including all cystic fibrosis, severe asthma and severe COPD.
   
   
4. People with rare diseases and inborn errors of metabolism that significantly increase the risk of infections (such as SCID, homozygous sickle cell).
   
   
5. People on immunosuppression therapies sufficient to significantly increase risk of infection.
   
   
6. Women who are pregnant with significant heart disease, congenital or acquired.

Shielding is for your personal protection. It is your choice to decide whether to follow the measures we advise. Individuals who have been given a prognosis of less than 6 months to live, and some others in special circumstances, could decide not to undertake shielding. This will be a deeply personal decision. We advise calling your GP or specialist to discuss this.

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Good for you! I am furloughed because i work ina gym but am volunteering to go out and about to help those who have been asked to self isolate. Until then and since I could not work at home, I was assuming that I should coninue doing what 'work' I could.
Perhaps when we all get to work it will be with enhanced precautionary measures so as to slow down the spread. If we self isolate until there is a vaccine there will be not much left to go back to so there will have to be a compromise As a unionised teacher you are probably going to be able to go off sick before being 'resigned' due to health anxiety most likely but what about your school and the kids you look after? My kids' schol had to close befor being forced to simply because of the large number of staff that hadn't showed up; I am hoping that before the schools do re open there will be a) retro viral tests and tests for key workers like teachers.
The other unitnended consequence will be the mental health of otherwise well old people and others who've left their chest pains and strokes untreatd for fear of catching hte virus in hospital. There seems to be no media debate about this aspect; it is NOT a question of the economy vs lives of the vulnerable. Our lives and health are intimately linked to the economy.

Max68 said:

As ridiculous as this sounds it could well push a few of us into a corner at some point. I see in the news today some idiotic Government minister whose name conveniently doesn't appear in the article, has allegedly suggested that schools could reopen after Easter and that the closure of schools could be more damaging than the virus itself. Clearly someone who doesn't have to work in one!!

I do - and as a type 2 diabetic with high blood pressure, albeit relatively well controlled with meds, I, as many of you are in this group with seemingly very little advice. Not in the top high risk group but certainly not advised to go and plant a kiss on the first person you see!!

So a dilemma, which could be applied to any line of work. If (and I would be very surprised if they did) they did ask schools to reopen after Easter where would you stand as an employee who wouldn't want to take the risk? Schools are petri dishes at the best of times and most of our students come in via taxi, more petri dishes!! I'm not in the top high risk group so how would that go down with my rights to stay away, if indeed I have any? Regarding Universal Credit I believe resigning, in normal times, meant that you didn't qualify and again I'm not sure being sacked even qualifies you to receive such benefit?

Obviously these aren't normal times and one would hope that the school would show a duty of care and certain staff would not be forced back, but what if they were? What would you do?

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Right Do Not Resign, remember your company needs you, sorry your company needs you to get the Gov hand outs
Once this is over, you can always clam sick pay due to??? For X No. of months
Yes schools, colleges, Uni are Petri dishes But that helps us because it’s our environment
T1 for 41 years 5 injections a day, high blood pressure, work as a teaching assistant for 28 years
My college ask me to remove myself Wednesday 18th March for 12 weeks due to Gov rules

NicoleC1971 said:

Good for you! I am furloughed because i work ina gym but am volunteering to go out and about to help those who have been asked to self isolate. Until then and since I could not work at home, I was assuming that I should coninue doing what 'work' I could.
Perhaps when we all get to work it will be with enhanced precautionary measures so as to slow down the spread. If we self isolate until there is a vaccine there will be not much left to go back to so there will have to be a compromise As a unionised teacher you are probably going to be able to go off sick before being 'resigned' due to health anxiety most likely but what about your school and the kids you look after? My kids' schol had to close befor being forced to simply because of the large number of staff that hadn't showed up; I am hoping that before the schools do re open there will be a) retro viral tests and tests for key workers like teachers.
The other unitnended consequence will be the mental health of otherwise well old people and others who've left their chest pains and strokes untreatd for fear of catching hte virus in hospital. There seems to be no media debate about this aspect; it is NOT a question of the economy vs lives of the vulnerable. Our lives and health are intimately linked to the economy.

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I am now furloughed in my other job, a food sampler/promoter in a well known supermarket, on ZHC. When will I be able to go back to both of my jobs, I don't know, but at least I will be getting paid by the council, which is a great help as I was a casual up until 26th February 2020, then I got a permanent position and thank goodness I did, as a month later, we were in lock down.
You're doing a great job helping others, that's fantastic.
Take good care and stay safe

Max68 said:

I won't quit unless we are forced kicking and screaming back as Guinee pigs!!! I love my job as it's at an Autistic school and do miss that and the SEN after school stuff I do but they are all closed down anyway for the foreseeable. I'm just intrigued how it all might pan out so pleased it's promoted a good debate.

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I'd say there is not enough of a debate about whether we are doing the right thing. There will be social, econonomic and health consequneces to the decison we've gone along with. I am looking North to Sweden with hope that I can get back to the gym and you can go back to helping families with autism for whom the current upset to their routines must be distressing.

Max68 said:

We need to find out why this virus is so unpredictable on how it affects people differently.

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I've been following several sources of information because I'm not so busy at the moment. One thing I have seen suggested by a virologist working at one of the Cambridge colleges is that this virus is mutating. He has been using the data available to learn more about the virus and is even suggesting that covid19 version 1 may have been around since as early as September, and as late as mid December. What Wuhan then reported could be version 2 and he is suggesting that Europe and the U.S. may have seen further mutations. Like you say we don't know enough. The chinese have recently reported that they are seeing a correlation between blood type and mortality, blood type O is doing much better than blood type A. I'm AB so I wonder where I am? Again even the Chinese are saying they don't have a bigh enough cohort, a couple of thousand I think.

Max68 said:

No idea what I will do if called back to work. I'll be financially safe but will I live to see the pay cheque?!!?

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It's not an easy choice and of course it's not just you getting it, it's others catching it from you. This is why I have been banging on about wearing masks, not foolproof I know, and there seems to be conflicting scientific evidence. I have seen some very good actual video (not a simulation) of people sneezing and even people just talking and it's remarkable how far spit travels. When talking you don't realise how much small bits of spit go all over the place. I'll never talk to anyone closer than 2, maybe three metres again. Also, I have a Singaporean friend who has lived through similar epidemics/pandemics in the last 15 years and she started sending me instructions on how to make a mask almost as soon as it kicked off. Add to that the Professor of Infectious Diseases in Seoul who said 'Wear a mask'. These are people who have been through it before and if you look at their number of cases they're doing better than most. I note that the W.H.O. are now recommending wearing masks as are the CDC in the U.S.

It's sad that Sweden have come a cropper, but what did they really expect, I worry that the U.K. advice not to bother with masks is ill advised. If I'm wrong, I'll have just looked silly on my weekly shopping trips, If I'm right but followed government advise, who knows?????

I think shop workers and anyone coming in to contact with others, even at 2 metres should wear a mask. There's plent of instructional videos on the internet. We don't have to deplete essential supplies which is why I think the government have taken their stance.

Good luck, stay safe.

Hepa vacuum cleaner bag material can be made into a pretty descent mask.

At our local Co-op the only time you see masks or gloves is when my wife or daughter go in to shop non of the staff have them and in fact I believe they have been instructed not to wear them by their supervisors, God alone knows why.

And now it seems the NHS and government have emergency plans to reuse PPE that is normally intended for single use only.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52288573

Don't do anything yet. I have a friend in exactly the same position but her head seems to be more reasonable and IF they do open they will look for volunteers first.

Personally I find the whole issue bonkers, you tell people that they have to work knowing full well that whatever their health there is a chance of them catching the virus and there is a chance of them dying. You only have to look at who is dying that although there might be some less able to cope with the virus, it's killing everyone and anyone.

I think your idea of talking to the Union is spot on, they must be dealing with this a lot. I did read something at https://www.peoplemanagement.co.uk/experts/legal/can-employers-force-staff-go-work-lockdown
here is an extract: I think these regulations apply while the lock down is on and that's just been extended for three weeks. Would your school be breaking the rules if they went back Monday week?

Aside from key workers and essential businesses, the government has expressly stated people should only go to work ‘where this is absolutely necessary and cannot be done from home’.
Employers must consider the following:
Are your workers ‘key workers’ and critical to the Covid-19 response (for example, in the health/social care sector)? If so, the government requires them to attend work.

• Is your business ‘essential’ to the fight against coronavirus? For example, do you produce medical supplies? If so, the government has asked that you ‘keep going’.
• If the answer to the first two questions is negative, can you ensure the recommended social distancing is implemented across your workforce?
• Are your employees able to work from home? If the answer is yes, you should urgently implement this.

I think the article is worth reading because it goes on to discuss what happens if you refuse to work, personally preferable to resigning. Resigning really means you have no leg to stand on.

All the very best.

PS Are you in Scotland? Nicola Sturgeon, although never a great fan, she has gone up a lot in my estimation, if only we had a PM that sensible. She's on TV just now.