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Type 2 or LADA?

LadyPT

Member
Messages
5
Type of diabetes
Family member
Treatment type
I do not have diabetes
Hello everyone! I am new here.

My lovely husband spent a good 18 months or more tired, losing weight, noticed difference in vision, numbness in hands and feet, infection in groin area etc. All very unusual for him! He has never been someone to suffer ill health.

Had blood tests and investigation for bowel cancer (family history) - all clear. Eventually his GP tested him for diabetes and he was diagnosed end June/beg July 2023 with Type 2 DM (HbA1C 103 mmol/L).

He was 49, didn’t eat biscuits, crisps, sweets, cakes, much in the way of fatty foods etc. Didn’t/doesn’t drink or smoke. Not overweight (nor had he ever been) and his arms/legs/buttocks had in recent times had become visibly depleted.

He took Gliclazide for an initial period of 2 weeks and Metformin ongoing. Removed the one spoon of sugar he used to consume a day from his diet, plus sultanas. Reduced his carbs. Continued to take the Metformin.

By 9th October his HbA1C was down to 55 mmol/L.

He was having hypos in the night and whenever he went for even a small walk or washed the car, so his Metformin was reduced from 4 tablets a day to 2.

His vision was tested in December and background retinopathy was confirmed in both eyes.

He had continued to lose weight and his diabetes nurse said she wanted him to be referred to the hospital to be tested for Type 1.5 or LADA (which we had never heard of).

His HbA1C was tested on Dec 15th and is down to 47 mmol/L.

He had a free trial of Freestyle Libre which we fitted on Dec 26th and it drove him mad - in the end he turned the alarm off. Whenever he ate carbs, his blood glucose would shoot up, often to 15-17, setting the alarm off. In the night the alarm would go off because he was having a hypo. So I think it is fair to say his blood sugar is pretty unstable… or is this normal? It was like a yo-yo.

He has started losing weight again - another 2.5lbs this week. He is 6ft and down from c13st to 11.5st. BMI 21.8. I appreciate this is still in the healthy range, but he looks skinny and does not want the weight loss to continue! He has started lifting weights and I have been giving him lots of lovely protein and fats to try to keep weight on him, but it doesn’t seem to be working.

He spoke to a different nurse last week and she told him that he didn’t need testing for LADA. Asked if this is something we had “read about on Google”… “No, it was your colleague!!” When he said about the Abbot Freestyle Libre, she said he was looking into things too closely and as he now has an HbA1C of 47, he should stop his finger prick glucose testing too.

He was totally confused by this and said he still wasn’t feeling brilliant. She offered him statins but didn’t explain why - said he should have been told about them on his DESMOND course. Our understanding was that total cholesterol should be under 4.0 mmol/l for diabetics (Guy’s was 3.8). HDL should be over 1.0 (Guy’s was 1.1). LDL should be under 2.0 (Guy’s was 2.1) - would this tiny difference in LDL be why she offered statins?

Guy has only ever had the basic non-fasting test to obtain his HbA1C. I read on here about a GAD antibody test - he has not had one of those. Are there other bloods he can have done to check he is actually a Type 2 diabetic and not LADA? Are we able to get these done privately if the NHS are choosing to write him off due to his HbA1C being where they want it? He is still tired, hungry soon after meals, losing weight etc.

I’ve booked an appointment with the surgery for 12 noon today, but not sure where that will get us. Thank you for reading!
 
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Let us know how you get on.
There are so many metabolic conditions it is difficult to give even an advice on how you should proceed.There
Tests are the way to start, hba1c is just the first.
Others should follow especially as you have stated.
His weight loss, should raise an alert.
Also the hypo and other symptoms.
My best advice to try and get somewhere, is to ask for a referral to a specialist.
 
Sorry to read about the issues your husband is experiencing.
We cannot diagnose of this forum but the symptoms you mention sound like Type 1 (or which LADA is just a version that is likely as an adult) especially the weight loss which is very unusual for type 2.

The hypo sounds odd but I wonder whether this was a “real hypo” or a compression low on the Libre - all CGMs will report a false low reading if pressure is applied. This is most common at night if you lie on your arm with the sensor.
Frustratingly, Libre are handed out without explanations of their limitations like these and instructions to raise the threshold for high BG.

Sadly, your husband’s diet may be hiding the Type 1 and falsely keeping his BG and HbA1C lower through low carb. But, if this is Type 1, more insulin producing cells will be slowly dying off and no diet will keep his BG low enough.
 
Here in Canada you might as well be asking for a pot of gold when you ask for an antibody test. From what I have read here on this site it is the same in the UK. To further complicate matters you can actually be negative for GAD antibodies but there are other kind of antibodies that maybe the culprits. You may stand a better chance asking for a C-peptide test. There is a direct correlation between c-peptides and insulin being produced by your pancreas. That would give you both a better idea of how his pancreas is doing. Just a thought.
 
I agree with all the above. Unexplained weight loss is a red flag. The large swings of blood glucose will make him feel terrible. The background retinopathy would suggest blood sugar levels have remained high for quite some time. I would think a diabetes specialist is required, this could be well beyond the scope of your local diabetes nurse or GP. Statins are routinely offered to every diabetic over 40. Taking them is a matter of reasoned personal choice. Let us know how things go.
 
Thank you all for the responses! We saw the diabetes nurse at noon and it transpires that the other diabetes “nurse” who told him to stop finger prick testing his BG and who tried to prescribe him statins was actually a pharmacist! Our usual nurse has written him back up for the testing strips and has told him that - although statins are offered to all DM cases over a certain age now - he is a very low risk, so it’s not something he needs to do at this stage.

Anyhoo, she dipped his urine (no ketones) and took bloods for GAD and c-peptide, but did say that the lab may refuse them from her! If they do, she will get him referred across to the diabetes nurse at the hospital who CAN get the bloods done. She is of the opinion that because his urine dip is ok, he is not likely to be Type 1 or LADA (even though last month she told us about LADA, as she thought he might be!) but that he is not a typical Type 2 either… Does it ever get less confusing?!

I do agree In Response that his low carb diet may well be masking the problem - he has been very disciplined around his carbs recently. Starting to wonder whether the poor chap is best off indulging in some much-missed carbs until they have investigated this fully!!
 
If he is hungry after his meals he might want to eat more? Especially because he's also losing weight.
Not more carbs but more fats and protein.

He is not hungry immediately after his meals, but they aren’t sustaining him for long before he feels hungry again. I gets loads of cold meats, cheeses, nuts, tomatoes, etc in for him to snack on, so it’s not like he isn’t eating plenty. Might get some heavy cream in and try making him a custard with erythritol sweetener - he misses custard.
 
Thank you all for the responses! We saw the diabetes nurse at noon and it transpires that the other diabetes “nurse” who told him to stop finger prick testing his BG and who tried to prescribe him statins was actually a pharmacist! Our usual nurse has written him back up for the testing strips and has told him that - although statins are offered to all DM cases over a certain age now - he is a very low risk, so it’s not something he needs to do at this stage.

Anyhoo, she dipped his urine (no ketones) and took bloods for GAD and c-peptide, but did say that the lab may refuse them from her! If they do, she will get him referred across to the diabetes nurse at the hospital who CAN get the bloods done. She is of the opinion that because his urine dip is ok, he is not likely to be Type 1 or LADA (even though last month she told us about LADA, as she thought he might be!) but that he is not a typical Type 2 either… Does it ever get less confusing?!

I do agree In Response that his low carb diet may well be masking the problem - he has been very disciplined around his carbs recently. Starting to wonder whether the poor chap is best off indulging in some much-missed carbs until they have investigated this fully!!
What alerted me to read your opening posts is the hypo and then in your follow up, the lack of ketones, high BG levels, and getting the tests, maybe eventually.
Do not read too much into this, we are not allowed to say what we think it may be.
But clearly, something is happening that is unusual to a T2 patient and as I said previously, a specialist would be my choice.

There is a number of other conditions that is similar to diabetes, some have higher levels and some are non diabetic.
I was misdiagnosed as a T2, quite understandable in the circumstances. But I kept having symptoms and episodes, and unlike your fella, I was gaining weight. The symptoms were after eating, high BG levels for a normal T2 patient, as well as someone without diabetes but would later on to into a sugar crash into a hypo.
I never knew!
It wasn't until I had all the tests done, then I was given a true diagnosis, but only because I was referred.

I would Continue low carb, as well as the good protein and fats. There is nowt worse than rollercoaster BG levels and the symptoms that comes with it.

Mod edit to comply with forum rules
 
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Update: he is still losing weight (down another 3.5lbs in about 3 weeks) and has a CT scan today.

We were initially told the lab had refused to test the bloods, then received a separate text message saying he was T2. Having looked on the app, his GAD test came back at < 5.0 kiu/L (vs a normal range of below 10.1) but his the C-peptide just says “not routinely available to primary care” with no further information, so I suspect it was disposed of.

He is crazy tired and feeling rubbish and I have heard from a few people that you can have a normal range GAD but still have something other than T2… can I get the c-peptide test done privately? Can anyone recommend a reputable company for this in the U.K. please?

I am also interested to know if there are other conditions where HbA1C can read high and then respond well to Metformin, but still be unstable during the day/in response to eating/activity. Google searches just keep bringing me back to T2 and recommending weight loss and dietary improvements, neither of which apply to him. I’m not looking for anyone to speculate what might be wrong with him or diagnose over the internet, of course, just to point me in the direction of other conditions where BG can be variable so I can do a little reading and research. Thank you!!!
 
There are 4 types of antibodies associated with the development of T1DM / LADA. An absence GAA or GAD antibodies doesn't necessarily mean a person does not have Type 1 or are at risk of developing type 1. The other three types are islet cell autoantibodies (ICA), antibodies to insulin (IAA), and protein tyrosine phosphatase (IA2 or ICA512). Different types or combinations of these antibodies may determine how fast one goes onto insulin. The other requirement related to the development of autoimmune diabetes is being predisposed with specific genetic markers HLA DR3 or DR4 or both. DQ8 in the mix along with HLA DR3/DR4 gives a much greater risk of type 1 diabetes. Also even if you have those genetic markers it doesn't mean you will develop type 1 it just means you are at risk. A person without those genetic markers means that you will not develop autoimmune diabetes.

That is my understanding. Please challenge me if I have that wrong.
 
I should also like to point out people do produce antibodies and test positive for them but again they don't necessarily go onto to develop T1DM. It does mean they are at risk. It's not straightforward.
 
Also even if you have those genetic markers it doesn't mean you will develop type 1 it just means you are at risk. A person without those genetic markers means that you will not develop autoimmune diabetes.
I agree with the rest of your post but have you got a link for this? You have to have those genetic markers to develop T1? (Not disputing your statement, just had not heard this before.)

@LadyPT there are quite a large number of diabetes types other than T1 and T2 . An endocrinologist would be in a much better position to diagnose than a GP . Did he get a hospital referral in the end?
 
I agree with the rest of your post but have you got a link for this? You have to have those genetic markers to develop T1? (Not disputing your statement, just had not heard this before.)

@LadyPT there are quite a large number of diabetes types other than T1 and T2 . An endocrinologist would be in a much better position to diagnose than a GP . Did he get a hospital referral in the end?
I have a number of reports, but this one maybe useful :
'Latent autoimmune diabetes of adults from oral hypoglycaemic agents to early insulin'
by Resham R. Poudel.
 
And - 'Genetics of Type 1 Diabetes' by Andrea K. Steck and Marian J. Rewers
 
I have a number of reports, but this one maybe useful :
'Latent autoimmune diabetes of adults from oral hypoglycaemic agents to early insulin'
by Resham R. Poudel.

And - 'Genetics of Type 1 Diabetes' by Andrea K. Steck and Marian J. Rewers

Interesting papers , particularly the LADA risk score in the first paper.
 
I believe it is possible to have type 1 without any genetic markers.
There is no history of Type 1 in my family going back at least four generations (and anyone earlier would not have survived). However, that didn’t stop me getting it.
And I have heard of others in a similar sitUstinov.
 
Update: he is still losing weight (down another 3.5lbs in about 3 weeks) and has a CT scan today.

We were initially told the lab had refused to test the bloods, then received a separate text message saying he was T2. Having looked on the app, his GAD test came back at < 5.0 kiu/L (vs a normal range of below 10.1) but his the C-peptide just says “not routinely available to primary care” with no further information, so I suspect it was disposed of.

He is crazy tired and feeling rubbish and I have heard from a few people that you can have a normal range GAD but still have something other than T2… can I get the c-peptide test done privately? Can anyone recommend a reputable company for this in the U.K. please?

I am also interested to know if there are other conditions where HbA1C can read high and then respond well to Metformin, but still be unstable during the day/in response to eating/activity. Google searches just keep bringing me back to T2 and recommending weight loss and dietary improvements, neither of which apply to him. I’m not looking for anyone to speculate what might be wrong with him or diagnose over the internet, of course, just to point me in the direction of other conditions where BG can be variable so I can do a little reading and research. Thank you!!!
I would only add until he is referred and has the diagnostic tests, you could not even guess at what is going on
The range and diversity in symptoms, there are so many endocrine conditions.
insist on a referral.

if you want to. And I did when I had the inkling of diagnosis and I couldn't find any other source, I started scouring a lot of medical papers and reports about the symptoms. And going through resource of information through the internet.

Within the RH forum, the number of unusual and rare conditions, where people are looking for answers to similar symptoms and having high BG levels and low BG levels levels. And the T2 umbrella is so wide and so many different reasons for it. Plus the misdiagnosis of all these types including myself. The lack of specialist doctors specialising in the endocrine conditions. It is no surprise there is a lot of confusion.

Keep battling, I had to.
Best wishes.
 
I believe it is possible to have type 1 without any genetic markers.
There is no history of Type 1 in my family going back at least four generations (and anyone earlier would not have survived). However, that didn’t stop me getting it.
And I have heard of others in a similar sitUstinov.
Thanks for your response In Response :) I must emphasize I'm no expert, just interested . These reports are an intense read. I believe over 30% plus Caucasians have those markers. Also 85% of diagnosed type 1's have no family history. So it's the risk factor that is important. There are other factors at play like environmental factors. I tried to emphasize that it's not inevitable. It's a question of increased likelyhood. And in reverse my mother and my mother's father had Rheumatoid arthritis (RA) but neither myself or my brother have RA.
 



Interesting papers , particularly the LADA risk score in the first paper.
I find genetics very interesting
 
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