Unexplained BS spikes

[MMonck]

Hey, been type 1 diabetic for over 13 years. I've had ups and downs in overall control but my HbA1c is usually very good.
Over the last couple of years I've experimented with low carb diets and carb cycling for body building - not competitively, just for vanity. Recently I've found that my blood sugar levels go up even when eating less than 50g of carb per day - sometimes less than 20g. Regardless I have massive spikes during the day that seem resistant to my novorapid.

I am experimenting with different theories, number one was that because I eat regularly (every few hours) then subsequent BS tests are revealing nothing except that I ate recently I've cut down on my testing but this doesn't really do anything.

I have been told it's been discovered that the novorapid bolus I use is not in fact not rapid as previously thought, but actually takes around 30 minutes to start working. Injecting 30 minutes before has not had any effect.
Second was adjusting my basal, which my doctors told me shouldn't make a difference, regardless of what I'm eating, my basal will not effect my levels as it is for background levels, I personally wasn't sure this was accurate but changing it also didn't really change much.
I'm starting to experiment with weirder things now like cutting out caffeine, fasting and testing my levels pre dawn to rule out dawn phenomena or symogi effect.

Any other ideas?

 

[Freema]

Hey, been type 1 diabetic for over 13 years. I've had ups and downs in overall control but my HbA1c is usually very good.
Over the last couple of years I've experimented with low carb diets and carb cycling for body building - not competitively, just for vanity. Recently I've found that my blood sugar levels go up even when eating less than 50g of carb per day - sometimes less than 20g. Regardless I have massive spikes during the day that seem resistant to my novorapid.

I am experimenting with different theories, number one was that because I eat regularly (every few hours) then subsequent BS tests are revealing nothing except that I ate recently I've cut down on my testing but this doesn't really do anything.

I have been told it's been discovered that the novorapid bolus I use is not in fact not rapid as previously thought, but actually takes around 30 minutes to start working. Injecting 30 minutes before has not had any effect.
Second was adjusting my basal, which my doctors told me shouldn't make a difference, regardless of what I'm eating, my basal will not effect my levels as it is for background levels, I personally wasn't sure this was accurate but changing it also didn't really change much.
I'm starting to experiment with weirder things now like cutting out caffeine, fasting and testing my levels pre dawn to rule out dawn phenomena or symogi effect.

Any other ideas?

very low carb is said by some to highten ones insuline resistance... so maybe you have a problem there ... you could also have some kind of illness in your body causing it...just suggestions as it is really even harder for me than for you to have any idea of why...
If one is very stressed from exercising , one can produce more adrenaline and because of that the liver can then again produce/convert even more protein into glucose... (if so one should reduce the intake of protein to like under 1 gram pro kg bodyweight, and only slowly raise it and se when one gets too much , you need more when bodybuilding than the recomended 0.8 grams pro kg bodyweight , but just how much is individual ) .....not all people get stressed equally from exercise and some get so stressed up that they have to choose the more sauntering way of long walks instead of exercising...
I know nothing really of type 1 diabetes but have heard that some also devellop insuline resistance over time...

 

[novorapidboi26]

what do you eat every few hours...?

 

[Kristin251]

Many type 1's have to keep their protein moderate and be careful not to over eat it. As you cut carbs did you increase protein? Protein spikes insulin almost as much as carbs and for me the excess protein requires more insulin and even needs to be staggered as protein takes longer to digest.

Exercise raises me a ton.

Just my two centS from what you've said ....

 

[1abRat]

Do a basal rate test https://mysugr.com/basal-rate-testing/

It's the only way to know if your background insulin is doing it's job.

If it is, then you can experiment with altering your insulin:carb ratio and the timing of your bolus doses.

 

[MMonck]

very low carb is said by some to highten ones insuline resistance... so maybe you have a problem there ... you could also have some kind of illness in your body causing it...just suggestions as it is really even harder for me than for you to have any idea of why...
If one is very stressed from exercising , one can produce more adrenaline and because of that the liver can then again produce/convert even more protein into glucose... (if so one should reduce the intake of protein to like under 1 gram pro kg bodyweight, and only slowly raise it and se when one gets too much , you need more wen bodybuilding than the recomended 0.8 grams pro kg bodyweight , but just how mush is individual ) .....not all people get stressed equally from exercise and some get so stressed up that they have to choose the more sauntering way of long walks instead of exercising...
I know nothing really of type 1 diabetes but have heard that some also devellop insuline resistance over time...

You seem to know a thing or two! I'm just after ideas here, I realise that the answer for me is very different from someone else going through the same thing. Yeah exercise makes a spike but I can explain that as you have. I should have been more specific. I'm talking about like mid morning to mid afternoon highs while I'm at my desk at work.
I thought about stress, to be honest I'm not sure how I can tell if I'm stressed out due to work (blood pressure test maybe?) and this happens at home at the weekend also. I also read up on insulin resistance due to higher fat protein rich diets as you do when you drop carbs, and it is a possibility but not sure how to test that. My sugar levels drop quite drastically towards the end of the evening though, that's after work, after gym, after I've finished eating.

 

[MMonck]

Many type 1's have to keep their protein moderate and be careful not to over eat it. As you cut carbs did you increase protein? Protein spikes insulin almost as much as carbs and for me the excess protein requires more insulin and even needs to be staggered as protein takes longer to digest.

Exercise raises me a ton.

Just my two centS from what you've said ....

This is something I've never seen before but that could be something to look into. I'm on a protein rich, higher in fat (which I've researched can increase insulin resistance) and low in carbs. Are there any studies on this?

 

[Freema]

You seem to know a thing or two! I'm just after ideas here, I realise that the answer for me is very different from someone else going through the same thing. Yeah exercise makes a spike but I can explain that as you have. I should have been more specific. I'm talking about like mid morning to mid afternoon highs while I'm at my desk at work.
I thought about stress, to be honest I'm not sure how I can tell if I'm stressed out due to work (blood pressure test maybe?) and this happens at home at the weekend also. I also read up on insulin resistance due to higher fat protein rich diets as you do when you drop carbs, and it is a possibility but not sure how to test that. My sugar levels drop quite drastically towards the end of the evening though, that's after work, after gym, after I've finished eating.

when I exercise a lot which I often do my blood glucose almost never gets low, which of cause annoys me, when I get home after 6 hours of excercise only having eaten a little like 400 calories /40 grams of carbs the most the whole day, then at 17 0´clock my blood glucose is only 0.3 mmol lower than in the mornings... then in the evening 0.6mmol lower and the next day it is 0.6mmol lower .. my conclusion is that my body as I get more fit also gets better and better at transforming proteins into glucose in my case...
but I want to keep on and hope in the long run it is more healthy than just reacting to short term changes...or fluctuations..

maybe we devellop a more general hightened (and unwanted ) abillity to transform protein into glucose, so that we all day around transform more protein into glucose... even when not exercising.

 

[MMonck]

when I exercise a lot which I often do my blood glucose almost never gets low, which of cause annoys me, when I get home after 6 hours of excercise only having eaten a little like 400 calories /40 grams of carbs the most the whole day, then at 17 0´clock my blood glucose is only 0.3 mmol lower than in the mornings... then in the evening 0.6mmol lower and the next day it is 0.6mmol lower .. my conclusion is tthat my body as I get more fit also gets better and better at tranforming proteins into glucose in my case...
but I want to keep on and hope in the long run it is more healthy than just reacting to short term changes...or fluctuations..

maybe we devellop a more general hightened (and unwanted ) abillity to transform protein into glucose, so that we all day around transform more protein into glucose... even when not exercising.

Again, an interesting theory that a couple of people have suggested. I would love to see a study on this or - if one doesn't exist - perform a study. Thanks for the idea!

 

[Freema]

maybe you´ll find this interesting too then.. they talk of starvation... but maybe if one read into it also kind of retricted eating combined with exercising... some of the same processes might happen in the body..

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22414/

http://www.ketotic.org/2012/08/if-you-eat-excess-protein-does-it-turn.html

 

[Kristin251]

This is something I've never seen before but that could be something to look into. I'm on a protein rich, higher in fat (which I've researched can increase insulin resistance) and low in carbs. Are there any studies on this?

I'm sure there are loads of studies but I initially read it in The Rosedale Diet book as well as Primal Body Primal Mind. Then I did my own personal study and down came the blood sugar. It is said most people only need 4-6 oz protein and day and divided into 3 or 4 meals. Also said that the body can only process 3 oz at a time and the rest will turn to glucose via gluconeogenisis. Gluconeogenisis proceeds quit rapidly in a low carb diet. I bolus for my protein or I will really spike. Dr Bernstein recommends blousing for half your protein as if they were carbs. So if you eat 21 g (3 oz) you need to bolus as if it were 10 carbs. There is also the protein stacking element. As protein raises insulin almost as much as carbs, if you're eating protein every few hours you ar e not letting bs or insulin return to baseline before spiking it again. 4 hours should be out between protein.
My mantra is vlc ( above ground veggies only ) MODERATE protein ( .8-1 g per kg LEAN body mass and higher healthy fat just until satisfied.

All that being said, the study I did on myself proved all this to be true and was the key to finding my steady goal blood sugars. If I eat protein alone, without any fats or veggies I spike quickly and much higher than if I add fat. I always have avocado with every meal as the fat and fiber keeps everything lower and slower.

Hope that helps

I feel your jaw dropping thinking that is not enough protein. Mine did too at first but it made everything that was wrong right. Oh, and if you're hungry between meals it's fat snacks, not protein. I will snack on nuts, olives or vlc veggies with a mayo dip.
Some foods make me more insulin resistant. ALL dairy, too many nuts, especially peanuts. They won't spike bs much if at all but I will require more insulin at the next meal. Fat impedes insulin so it's a tricky balance!!

 

[Kristin251]

Also to add, once your glycogen stores are full from excess protein ( or carbs) the insulin has no where to put the bold glucose so it floats around and you stay high until those stores are emptying. For me it seems to take much longer to become insulin sensitive again when I over eat protein. Sometimes days.

 

[MMonck]

maybe you´ll find this interesting too then.. they talk of starvation... but maybe if one read into it also kind of retricted eating combined with exercising... some of the same processes might happen in the body..

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22414/

http://www.ketotic.org/2012/08/if-you-eat-excess-protein-does-it-turn.html

This will require a couple of reads to fully comprehend, but my initial take away as mentioned in other replies is that insulin is needed to process protein so it may be the case that have to add more insulin even if carbs are low - correct?

 

[Freema]

This will require a couple of reads to fully comprehend, but my initial take away as mentioned in other replies is that insulin is needed to process protein so it may be the case that have to add more insulin even if carbs are low - correct?

maybe I am not really capable in understanding it that clearly... type 1 is mentioned as an exception in one of the links as the insuline levels are not an emediate and automatic response and only biologically dose-reaction... which creates some changed and maybe more unpredictable conditions in IRL

 

[MMonck]

I'm sure there are loads of studies but I initially read it in The Rosedale Diet book as well as Primal Body Primal Mind. Then I did my own personal study and down came the blood sugar. It is said most people only need 4-6 oz protein and day and divided into 3 or 4 meals. Also said that the body can only process 3 oz at a time and the rest will turn to glucose via gluconeogenisis. Gluconeogenisis proceeds quit rapidly in a low carb diet. I bolus for my protein or I will really spike. Dr Bernstein recommends blousing for half your protein as if they were carbs. So if you eat 21 g (3 oz) you need to bolus as if it were 10 carbs. There is also the protein stacking element. As protein raises insulin almost as much as carbs, if you're eating protein every few hours you ar e not letting bs or insulin return to baseline before spiking it again. 4 hours should be out between protein.
My mantra is vlc ( above ground veggies only ) MODERATE protein ( .8-1 g per kg LEAN body mass and higher healthy fat just until satisfied.

All that being said, the study I did on myself proved all this to be true and was the key to finding my steady goal blood sugars. If I eat protein alone, without any fats or veggies I spike quickly and much higher than if I add fat. I always have avocado with every meal as the fat and fiber keeps everything lower and slower.

Hope that helps

I feel your jaw dropping thinking that is not enough protein. Mine did too at first but it made everything that was wrong right. Oh, and if you're hungry between meals it's fat snacks, not protein. I will snack on nuts, olives or vlc veggies with a mayo dip.
Some foods make me more insulin resistant. ALL dairy, too many nuts, especially peanuts. They won't spike bs much if at all but I will require more insulin at the next meal. Fat impedes insulin so it's a tricky balance!!

I'm sure there are loads of studies but I initially read it in The Rosedale Diet book as well as Primal Body Primal Mind. Then I did my own personal study and down came the blood sugar. It is said most people only need 4-6 oz protein and day and divided into 3 or 4 meals. Also said that the body can only process 3 oz at a time and the rest will turn to glucose via gluconeogenisis. Gluconeogenisis proceeds quit rapidly in a low carb diet. I bolus for my protein or I will really spike. Dr Bernstein recommends blousing for half your protein as if they were carbs. So if you eat 21 g (3 oz) you need to bolus as if it were 10 carbs. There is also the protein stacking element. As protein raises insulin almost as much as carbs, if you're eating protein every few hours you ar e not letting bs or insulin return to baseline before spiking it again. 4 hours should be out between protein.
My mantra is vlc ( above ground veggies only ) MODERATE protein ( .8-1 g per kg LEAN body mass and higher healthy fat just until satisfied.

All that being said, the study I did on myself proved all this to be true and was the key to finding my steady goal blood sugars. If I eat protein alone, without any fats or veggies I spike quickly and much higher than if I add fat. I always have avocado with every meal as the fat and fiber keeps everything lower and slower.

Hope that helps

I feel your jaw dropping thinking that is not enough protein. Mine did too at first but it made everything that was wrong right. Oh, and if you're hungry between meals it's fat snacks, not protein. I will snack on nuts, olives or vlc veggies with a mayo dip.
Some foods make me more insulin resistant. ALL dairy, too many nuts, especially peanuts. They won't spike bs much if at all but I will require more insulin at the next meal. Fat impedes insulin so it's a tricky balance!!

Yeah I add fats like nuts and a little red meat. I've heard about the body not being able to process more than a certain amount of protein but on a more ketonic diet, sure you are using that extra protein as you don't have carbs for energy and fats are slow releasing. This is absolutely fascinating and before today I never considered this as a theory so thank you for contributing. I've got to test this on myself!!!

 

[azure]

You seem to know a thing or two! I'm just after ideas here, I realise that the answer for me is very different from someone else going through the same thing. Yeah exercise makes a spike but I can explain that as you have. I should have been more specific. I'm talking about like mid morning to mid afternoon highs while I'm at my desk at work.
I thought about stress, to be honest I'm not sure how I can tell if I'm stressed out due to work (blood pressure test maybe?) and this happens at home at the weekend also. I also read up on insulin resistance due to higher fat protein rich diets as you do when you drop carbs, and it is a possibility but not sure how to test that. My sugar levels drop quite drastically towards the end of the evening though, that's after work, after gym, after I've finished eating.

Do you bolus for the protein? Could it be a delayed rise from that?

If Novorapid isn't working for you, could you try Humalog or another insulin? You're not the first person who's commented on Novorapid. Not all insulins suit all people.

 

[MMonck]

Do you bolus for the protein? Could it be a delayed rise from that?

If Novorapid isn't working for you, could you try Humalog or another insulin? You're not the first person who's commented on Novorapid. Not all insulins suit all people.

I currently do not bolus for protein. This theory could make sense, especially the stacking part, as my levels do drop at the end of the day after I have exercised (usually go after work).
I can't say to my knowledge that I've had a problem with novorapid in terms of resistance. Could it be possible for one to build a tolerance to it? I'm going to change my basal from lantus to treciba - if that's how you spell it. I've been advised that it's a more of a 24hour constant flow of background insulin and it doesn't dwindle after a period of time.

 

[azure]

@MMonck Well, that may well be your problem then, depending on whether your eating carbs with your protein or eating a large amount of protein. I eat moderate protein and moderate carbs and just bolus for the carbs, but if I ate protein and salad, for example, I'd have to bolus for the protein. That's very normal to,have to do that in those circumstances.

Protein can raise your BS too, especially in the absence of carbs.

 

[Kristin251]

Yeah I add fats like nuts and a little red meat. I've heard about the body not being able to process more than a certain amount of protein but on a more ketonic diet, sure you are using that extra protein as you don't have carbs for energy and fats are slow releasing. This is absolutely fascinating and before today I never considered this as a theory so thank you for contributing. I've got to test this on myself!!!

You betcha and good luck!! I'm sure you'll find some answers. All macros play a roll so balance is key. Carbs obviously raise bs most but protein requires almost as much insulin. ( even more so when vlc) then fat impedes insulin so at the end of the day we need some of each but not too much of any.

 

[MMonck]

Thanks for the tips guys - I had no idea about protein raising blood sugar but it kinda makes sense after looking into the biochemistry.
I shall do more research and perform a little experiment on myself.