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View on low carbing.(part two)

Discussion in 'Diabetes Discussions' started by NickW, Oct 11, 2009.

  1. Doczoc

    Doczoc · Well-Known Member

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    Priceless!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

    So using your logic, are all the anti low carbers merely seeking to have as many people as possible on meds and with complications so they can feel better about their own predicament?

    No, that would be ridiculous, just as ridiculous as your post above.

    I fail to see the point of such posts Jopar. It only serves to cause friction. Is that the goal?

    I don't actually see that much brainwashing going on here. It seems to me that if someone is asking for advice on BG control it's ok to advise low fat/high fiber, it's ok to advise low GI/GL, it's OK to advise upping medication but as soon as someone mentions low carb there is a wailing and gnashing of teeth and cries of 'brainwash, brainwash!'

    Low carb is another tool in the box. Why don't we allow others to make up their own minds.
     
  2. Fujifilm

    Fujifilm · Well-Known Member

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    I think there is subliminal messages in these posts, I have the urge to read the information on food packets. Just don't tell anyone. :D
     
  3. Doczoc

    Doczoc · Well-Known Member

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    Blimey you call these subliminal??? :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
     
  4. Celtic.Piskie

    Celtic.Piskie · Well-Known Member

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    Everything, in the wrong quantities is lethal to us.
    Oxygen, water, salt, arsenic.

    Living is hazardous to your health.

    The argument that all drugs are toxic is fallicious, and absolutely everything is toxic to us, in the wrong quantities.
    Ou liver and kidneys can cope perfectly well with the vast majority of the drugs we take in on a daily basis. Coffee, cinnamon, alcohol.

    There is a giant difference between using something and taking too much.
     
  5. catherinecherub

    catherinecherub · Guest

    To anyone who is low carbing and believes some of the posts here concerning medication being toxic then please read this. It is written by Jenny Ruhl, a well respected lady in the low carb community and elsewhere and whose website helps all diabetics,regardless of their individual diet plans,with lots of suggestions re the dawn phenomenon etc.....

    http://www.phlaunt.com/lowcarb/19060149.php There are references in this article to using medication and no mention of toxicity. Sometimes, as this article proves, there are times when medication is necessary. This appears to me to be a more balanced view.

    I am not a low carber but I do care about all diabetics and we have to have a balanced view of all aspects of control and management.
    Opinions are just that, opinions so please be careful when you read posts.
     
  6. phoenix

    phoenix Type 1 · Expert

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    Last night I was very concerned about an earlier post. I wrote a reply with links to personal stories and information but decided to cut it. Having a slept on it I still feel that I want to say something.
    To suggest that insulin is toxic ,merely keeps us ticking over and should be reduced to the lowest level is potentionally dangerous, particularly when taken in context with previous posts about carbs and insulin causing weight gain.
    There are far too many, young women (though not exclusively women) who make these associations and follow them through, the results are often tragic.

    As Jopar says, if one has a 'normal' weight, and blood glucose levels within safe targets then the amount of insulin taken is the right amount for you. People with Type I live active, full and long lives. Injected insulin enables them to do this.
     
  7. NickW

    NickW · Well-Known Member

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    It's a difficult subject and I understand your concerns phoenix - so I'll try to word this carefully as I do NOT want to imply that driving insulin usage low at all costs is the aim.

    Type 1 diabetics have the option of trying to balance out anything they eat with insulin. At one extreme someone could eat huge amounts of carbohydrates - say 1000g per day - and theoretically balance that out perfectly with huge amounts of insulin to get "good control". At the other extreme someone could eat zero-carb and do large quantities of low-intensity exercise to drive their insulin usage as low as possible, and also get "good control". And of course in the middle is a sliding scale of carbohydrate to insulin intake, and at all levels of carb intake it's possible to balance it out with insulin to get a good HbA1c (it tends to be harder to get good control with large intakes of carb, but it's possible and let's assume for now this isn't an issue).

    These approaches might result in the same blood glucose control, but they're not equivalent at all.

    In non-type-1-diabetics (or should I say "anyone who still produces insulin"), if they produce too much insulin (hyperinsulinemia) it's a real problem. It's a causal factor in many health issues - including type 2 diabetes, heart disease, raised blood pressure, obesity, hyperthyroidism and all sorts of other conditions; it's increasingly being linked to various cancers for example. Insulin is an extremely potent hormone, and too much of it is dangerous, just as too little of it is dangerous. As with everything, the body needs the correct balance.

    A type 1 diabetic eating lots of carbohydrate and injecting lots of insulin is equivalent to a non-diabetic eating lots of carbohydrate and producing lots of insulin. If natural insulin in too-large quantities is damaging to the non-diabetic, why would injected insulin in too-large quantities NOT be damaging to the diabetic? Type 1 diabetics aren't immune to the problems of elevated insulin levels - T1's can develop insulin resistance, and they can suffer from all of the metabolic disorders that non-diabetics or type 2 diabetics can suffer from.

    Type 1's have an added problem. Because the healthy pancreas is so accurate and can fine-tune insulin secretions really quickly, it can release exactly the right amount of insulin. Type 1's inject insulin in large doses, and it tends to take more insulin delivered in this fashion compared to what the pancreas would produce (in the same way that pump users generally use less insulin than someone on MDI, because the doses are smaller and more frequent; so too the pump user still uses more insulin than a pancreas would support because even the best pump delivers insulin far less often than the pancreas). So T1's are already at a disadvantage in that we typically inject more insulin than we'd produce if our pancreases worked.

    This is where I at least am coming from (and I think fergus and others are saying the same). The amount of insulin you use does have an effect, and needs to be borne in mind. All other things being equal, it's better to use less insulin than more. But the important part there is "all other things being equal". By this I mean, first and foremost, that T1's absolutely need to take their insulin and keep good control of their HbA1C's - that's just a given, and no way am I suggesting otherwise. Beyond that, there's the fact that people need to have a life and enjoy it - so whatever dietary and exercise regime you decide on has to be one that works for YOU. For the best diabetic control I believe this would involve a low-carb diet and a goodly amount of exercise; but if that makes someone miserable or they know they won't stick with it, then the advantages clearly aren't worth the downsides. It's all a balancing act like everything in life, and I think people just need to be aware of the upsides AND the downsides so they can choose the best path for themselves.

    T1's absolutely need their insulin, it's not the devil and I'm extremely grateful that I can inject the stuff and keep on living! For ANY type 1 diabetic my advice would most certainly be to inject the amount you need to get good control - don't reduce dosages and run higher blood sugars just so you can use less insulin. But at the same time, it's a powerful drug and too much of it is harmful, so if someone uses a lot of insulin it's worth thinking about options that might let them reduce that amount while still keeping good control.
     
  8. peterlemer

    peterlemer · Well-Known Member

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    NickW - many thanks for taking to time to spellcheck that post, let alone compose it! :)

    Great advice - thoughtfully expressed.

    I'll endorse everything you say there.

    pete
     
  9. Phil Ferris

    Phil Ferris · Newbie

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    Hi I have tried the Atkins Low Carb diet and it really works, for me, i have just had an appointment for Gastric band surgery. The Consultant i saw has told me that the Atkins diet plan is the best for people with diabetes and weight problems. I myself have found that i have halved my insulin within 4 days of starting my diet, and my blood sugar levels are getting more manageable. So i would like to add my name / weight to the low Carb camp. It Really Works. :D
     
  10. fergus

    fergus Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Expertly put, Nick, and I agree completely with what you said. And thanks also for saving me an hour of my life in putting it together!
    Please bear in mind that the No.1 rule with exogenus insulin is ensuring that it accurately matches the quantity of glucose available from the diet. The reference to its toxicity was made by a GP and I thought was insightful. It seems a common misconception that insulin has no other effect on the human body besides lowering blood sugar level when there is abundant evidence otherwise.
    The GP certainly did not imply that insulin was toxic at any level, clearly it is absolutely essential to life and type 1's perhaps appreciate that more than most. Without adequate injected insulin, the body becomes far more toxic, far more quickly. The point was that it insulin, when used inappropriately and to excess can also have a toxic effect on the human body.
    For this reason it's important to consider appropriate use not simply in the context of short term blood glucose control, but in longer term physical health.
    Now, I'm off to inject some insulin before my lunch.

    All the best,

    fergus
     
  11. Patch

    Patch Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Ferg - what do you mean by toxic? Do you mean Acidic??? (I'm reading Dr. Robert Young at the moment, so any reference to toxicity/acidity/alkalinity pricks my ears up!)
     
  12. fergus

    fergus Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Not really Patch. Insulins are by and large ph neutral, somewhere from 7 to 7.8 I think.
    The reference was really made regarding the effect of elevated insulin on the endocrine system, on fat metabolism, vasculature and organ function.

    All the best,

    fergus
     
  13. NickW

    NickW · Well-Known Member

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    Glad to hear I wasn't talking drivel above; I did wonder...! :)

    Patch,

    Personally, the way I think of it is just like glucose in the blood. The body absolutely needs some blood glucose; you'd die without it. But if the levels become too high it becomes toxic; it causes damage to arterial walls which as we all know can lead to neuropathy, retinopathy etc.

    I think of insulin in the same way; it's vital to life and you need some of it otherwise you'd die (think what happens right before a T1 is diagnosed), but too much of it causes damage to the arteries and organs.

    Most things in the body are like this. Think of minerals and vitamins; we need them in the right quantities, and deficiencies cause serious health problems; but at the same time, taking in too much of them causes its own problems and they become toxic. You can die of dehydration but you can also die of hyponatremia (basically if you drink too much water in certain circumstances you can over-dilute the blood and effective die from overhydration). It's the same deal with most things; the body needs the right amount of stuff, and too much can be harmful.

    There might well be more to it as well, but that's the basic premise. I'll have to read up some more; it's all interesting stuff!
     
  14. phoenix

    phoenix Type 1 · Expert

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    Thankyou for your reply Nick ,
    It was not your posts that so concerned me, and I appreciate the sensitivity of the reply.
    I absolutely agree that too much insulin to 'cover' too high a food intake can cause insulin resistance, and weight gain,'double diabetes' most definitely exists. I'm sure we would be in agreement that a diet of cakes, biscuits and Big Macs is no good for anyone.
    But it is not carbohydrate alone that requires insulin. A breafast of bacon and eggs (for me) requires as much insulin as my normal weighed portion of mixed grain porridge, milk and berries.I find that protein most definitely needs taking account of, particularly in the absence of carbs. I would not reduce by insulin by changing my breakfast but would lose the possible benefits from the betaglucans, calcium, and assorted vitamins.
    Protein (as has been discussed before), has a glycaemic index of its own, producing an insulin response and glucose spike in people without diabetes.

    However there is another side to this equation (can one have an equation with 3 sides?)
    I totally agree with you on the importance of exercise in increasing insulin sensitivity (and increasing metabolic rate) I only wish that there was more emphasis on it in these forums.
    This for me has just as much influence on glucose control as diet.
    If I exercise I take less insulin during and after exercise...on the pump this is measurable, for some types of activity I use only 40% of my normal, already fairly low needs.(ie at times 0.1u an hour...you can't get much lower). On the other hand if I miss 2 days I need to eat less, or take more insulin. If I carried on not exercising and eating as if I were exercisng, I would also gain weight.
    This is very much the same as prediabetes. (except for the calculations involved) It is indeed a matter of balance . Pre diabetes, I knew nothing of the metabolic processes involved but I knew jolly well that if I ate too much and didn't exercise I would put weight on. It was far easier not to put it on in the first place than to try to lose it.
     
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  15. NickW

    NickW · Well-Known Member

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    Hi phoenix,

    You're absolutely right of course, it's not just carbohydrate that needs insulin; protein can also need to be covered by insulin, particularly when you eat fewer carbs. I oversimplified in in my post, I was worried it'd end up longer than War and Peace and I'd die of old age before I finished it :lol:.

    I'm with you on the exercise thing as well, it makes such a difference to insulin sensitivity. Again it's a complicated business, with intensity dictating how it affects us; intense exercise generally raising blood glucose in the short term, but improving insulin sensitivity longer term for example. Yet again more factors to consider, but the benefits of exercise are of course huge and I agree, it'd be nice to see more discussion of exercise on the forum. In fact, I may well start making a few posts about it... :)
     
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