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Wake up my lazy 'B Cells'

Discussion in 'Type 2 Diabetes' started by If_only, Jun 7, 2021.

  1. If_only

    If_only Type 2 · Active Member

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    Hello
    Today I have another thought. It is just my thought and everyone has their own opinion which i respect and I am in no way disputing or challenging anyone else's view.

    I was reading a lot of sites over the weekend (Michael Mosely and David Unwin to name a couple) and there is this thought that it is our B cells going in to a dormant state that causes the resistance to insulin. The cells are not dead or dying but have just gone dormant. It is also possible in theory to wake them up, tap in to additional cells or generate new ones, though I don't think anyone has done that yet.

    Why hasn't medical science talked about this? Well there is another theory that big Pharama companies are developing a drug to generate artificial b cells and that the drug industry is so lucrative with so many people depending on drugs that these companies are rubbing their hands together with £ or $ signs in there eyes. Lets face it, if there was a way to not be drug dependant these companies will lose out.
    Yes I accept there sadly will be many people who will need to take drugs to control their levels but I believe there will also be a lot of people that could if they wanted to try a more drug free option.

    Now my next question is if the human body can fix most other parts or at least to some level, why is it the pancreas that is the exception to the rule? It doesn't make sense to me. Surely there must be instances where eating properly and getting the right "repair ingredients" will crank start my B cells, I would be surprised if there has never been a case where someone with T2 has actually returned to normal, proper normal. There has to be a combination to do this. Diabetes is an epidemic and I don't believe its being treated as say a virus outbreak would be. The general approach seems to be manage it rather than cure it. Correct me if I am wrong here.

    I also know for a fact, as I have supported the risk management and medicine management software that huge pharmaceuticals supply GPs with that set "achievements" which are converted in to financial rewards from the government. For example one tick box may be "have 70% of male patients between the ages of 50 and 75 to have a particular screening, or are put on a particular drug". If they achieve this then the GP practice may get £1000 per patient or they could get a lump sum of £25K for example. There are loads of questions, stats, graphs, data mining that the software does. IMHO, pharmas make the drugs by the billions, governments buy them for their health services, GPs need more funding so they prescribe more drugs than is realistically needed, the patient pays for the drugs (unless exempt but then everyone else who pays subsidises these people), the government gets their money back and passes a cut to the GP Practice.

    Are we being guided down a drug dependant road without trying other methods first?
    Who is to say that instead of being dependant on drugs, there is not another way of managing my Type 2, taking an over all approach that allows for the odd day of "normal food" here and there and generally being strict but with allowances? Maybe a holistic approach rather than eat, measure and react is an option and that it is possible to cut risks and complications and return to a somewhat normal condition by these changes?

    Maybe I am alone in this thought, maybe not but its my thought of the day and my hope that one day someone will come up with a cure and not rip off or exploit those who need it.
     
  2. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    You need to define what you mean by this?

    Yes GP training seems to indicate that this is the future of medicine.

    If by normal food you mean the junk that got us into this state in the first place, I have to ask why would you want to?

    My view is that by losing visceral fat around the organs using a low carb diet insulin resistance brought on by hyperinsulinemia can be "corrected". That's why so many of us have much success following that particular path. Combine it with some intermittent fasting and you seem to get even better results.
    Once insulin resistance is overcome then your beta cells can function perfectly normally as mine now seem to.
     
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  3. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Expert

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    Have you tried going back to eating around 200g of carbs a day to see if this is true?

    If not, how do you know your beta cells are functioning perfectly normally? Is there a beta cell function test available?
     
  4. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    Passing the OGTT without carbing up beforehand?
    Why would I choose to poison myself again though?
     
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  5. Dr Snoddy

    Dr Snoddy Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Just a technical point. B cells are part of the immune system. As other folk have said, insulin is produced by beta cells in the pancreas. Most of us are already confused enough!
     
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  6. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    Not wishing to go down the rabbit hole of conspiracy theories, I will try to answer you a different way. Let us examine those who claim success in apparently slowing down and reversing the inexorable march to insulin dependency and amputation which used to herald a diagnosis of T2D. I am not talking about T1D or those suffering pancreatic insufficiency through disease or surgery. We are in the realms of the Unwins, Taylors, Moseley's who have scientific studies demonstrating some success in making a valid claim it seems. One important point is that what success they achieve seems to be limited - either it only applies to some participants, or it is short-lived and only viable while following their protocols. Return to the land of flowing honey seems still to be beyond our grasp. This site has many success testimonials for dietary interventions, and again, there does not seem to be a diet plan that suits everybody, and again they all need to be maintained for life to prevent relapse.

    So, we can find ways to give back control and there seems to be some evidence that some of these techniques can allow a modicum of repair of beta-cell function to return. But stray off the path and the problem still comes back. I suppose an ex-smoker or reformed alcoholic suffers this same dilemma.

    Then there is the medical procedure route (not pharma but related) Bariatric Surgery is offered to obese T2D as a means of getting remission. It can be effective in some patients but is not foolproof, and again can be circumvented if normal behaviour is returned to. It needs lifelong attention to the prorocol like a diet. Alternatively there is the stem cell based research. It has not yet yielded a viable result, even though your own stem cells can be harvested, programmed as beta cells, and inserted intoo your pancreas, but this has not yielded any success yet for either T1D or T2D.

    The last pathway I can see is the ayurvedic approach which is (in westerner eyes) alternative therapy without involving Big Pharma. As one who uses some of these treatments myself, I make the following observation. If I use NHS then I get my prescription for free, what I need costs me nothing except time, and I have already paid for it in my N.I contributions. My Bitter Melon or Cinnamon or whatever other compounds I use costs me. The NHS ones are regulated to be of known strength, quality, and are repeatable, my web purchased ones are at my own risk and of unknown efficacy or quality. There have generally been no scientific studies done on the compounds, and I depend on gurus and book writers/magazine editors to write up their 'knowledge' which again I probably have to pay for. But some Doctor Guru's are doctors not in medicine, but some other nonrelated career that allows them to call themselves Dr, My son is one such person being a Doctor of Physics, my local priest is a Doctor of Divinity. So we have a belief Black Hole. I know Dr Unwin is an active GP, but the others I mentioned are not medical practitioners (Dr Mosely did not complete his training and has never been an HCP as far as I can tell. Prof Taylor is a radiologist - he can take pretty pictures of your inner workings, but he runs the specialist team at Uni, not an HCP practice)
     
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  7. Ronancastled

    Ronancastled Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I believe the study @If_only refers to is the Prof Taylor Direct Study.
    The 2 year follow up data from successful candidates did indeed show how their maximal insulin output was similar to a non-diabetic age/weight matched control group.
    Indeed it was back to almost normal at 12 months.
    https://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/68/Supplement_1/66-OR

    The big thing to note here is that these successful candidates were a subset of a subset whose insulin resistance was completely down to visceral fat.
    As I have learned there are many routes to insulin resistance in T2s so this doesn't apply to everyone.
    Also, from memory, these candidates A1cs averaged 6.0% & none were subjected to an OGTT.

    Low carb has far greater response across all cohorts of T2s & is a sustainable long term plan.
     
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  8. Resurgam

    Resurgam Type 2 (in remission!) · Expert

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    I have had normal levels of glucose for about 4 years now, eating a low carb diet. If I eat more carbs than I can cope with, my insulin works perfectly and stashes it away in my cells so next day I step on the scales and there it is, up to a couple of pounds added. It takes some time of restricted eating and extra exercise to get rid of it, so I avoid exceeding my carb limits.
    I have been told that if I was really in remission I would be able to eat 'normal' amounts of carbs, but as I never could before diagnosis, why should it be any different afterwards?
     
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  9. zand

    zand Type 2 · Master

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    I don't think my beta cells are lazy, more worn out through overuse, so it makes sense to rest them by eating low carb and having one meal a day.
     
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  10. Dark Horse

    Dark Horse · Well-Known Member

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  11. Dark Horse

    Dark Horse · Well-Known Member

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    The research by Professor Roy Taylor suggests that if overweight people lose weight soon after diagnosis (about 15 kg for people over 100 kg or 15% of body weight for those under 100kg) they lose fat from the pancreas and beta cells may be 're-awakened' and start functioning again. https://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal/#publicinformation

    Although they used an 8-week low calorie diet with 'shakes' in the research, other diets could be used as long as the individual is able to stick to them - the weight loss is what counts. However, if people have unkowingly had diabetes for a long time before diagnosis, this method may not work.
     
  12. LittleGreyCat

    LittleGreyCat Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that this is correct.
    As far as I know the majority of T2s, at least in the early stages, are in a cycle of over producing insulin to counter ever increasing insulin resistance.
    Removing fat from tissues, especially internal organs, can reduce insulin resistance and reduce the demands for insulin.
    This is usually, but not always, associated with being overweight.

    There are a subset of T2s who have a pancreas which is under producing insulin and often this gets worse over time.
    These are often slim T2s.
    If the pancreas gives up producing insulin the person falls into the confusing category of starting out as T2 but then becoming effectively T1.
    There have been many discussions on this.

    There was talk a couple of years back of Beta cells in T1s changing so the immune system didn't attack them.
    This is an intriguing proposition because it suggests the potential to reduce or cure T1 if the cells can be both revived and protected.

    Coming back to the Beta cells going dormant to cause insulin resistance; I can't see the logic behind this as T1s have dormant (or no) Beta cells and they aren't uniformly insulin resistant.
     
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  13. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    According to this, his qualifications are all in physics. His degree, his Ph.D., his professorship are all nonmedical, but his research is linked to medical care through his work at Newcastle ac.
    Edit to remove link to another Prof Roy Taylor who is at Imperial College. This negates the comments I made above
     
    #13 Oldvatr, Jun 8, 2021 at 3:25 PM
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2021
  14. Richard'63

    Richard'63 Prefer not to say · Well-Known Member

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    Um ...
     
  15. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    Classic chicken and egg situation. There are actually two identified types of IR that occur in mainly T2D. One is mitochondrial IR (muscles and subcutaneous fat), and adipose IR (abdomen and visceral fat). They seem to have different trigger mechanisms and not necessarily one single solution, but that is what most people seem to assume the ND diet provides.

    Roy Taylor by his work has concentrated on primarily adipose IR and he ignores the mitochondrial effects. However, the general weight loss that the diet induces would probably greatly assist that second IR by removing any fat seepage into subcutaneous cells as a serendipitous gain. His work will be of great benefit to the diabetic community and advances our understanding of the condition. But it is just the beginning, a stepping stone. And it only worked for 46% of participants who were rigorously monitored and followed up. The results in a more general slice of the public may not reach even this success rate. We are also seeing a drop-off effect with time after the trial concluded, so there is a mechanism there that needs to be staunched and understood.
     
  16. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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  17. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    As I pointed out in a similar thread on the topic of ND and beta cell revival, it is important to take on board that this work allows Prof Taylor to declare possible mechanisms by which the results were recorded. This is a single viewpoint taken at one moment in history. He has not proved those mechanisms, and it is for others to take his work and repeat the experiments and also provide some other independent means as proof that what he is claiming is verifiable. Then it becomes a theory, and no longer just a hypothesis. Until it is verified, it remains = 'The Thoughts of Chairman Roy' and we should not give it too much importance beyond its capability. It becomes another tool in the toolbox, Remember that the ND was originally kicked off as a chemical alternative to bariatric surgery, and it must be noted that the surgery also suffers only partial success and similar failure mechanisms over time.
     
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    #17 Oldvatr, Jun 8, 2021 at 4:09 PM
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2021
  18. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    Maybe but I am not the only one confused then See the following, which appears to merge both an earlier life with the one from Newcastle ac which has no entries pre 1980.
    https://www.emedevents.com/speaker-profile/roy-taylor

    Edit: it seems the NHS is also confused
    https://www.england.nhs.uk/author/roy-taylor/

    I also note that your version has him being granted honourary physician status, which is unusual if he had already been qualified as a medic.

    Edit to add: Even the NHS has him defining the diabetic eye screening test, but there seems to be no publications relating to this work in his name. There are papers attributed to the other Prof Roy Taylor that I posted in error in this thread. So I am still confused. The emeds events link above used the NHS data, so is a copy of the same connundrum.

    Solved: The Lancet has papers by R Taylor at Newcastle in diabetic eye screening.
     
    #18 Oldvatr, Jun 8, 2021 at 4:19 PM
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2021
  19. Richard'63

    Richard'63 Prefer not to say · Well-Known Member

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    The guy you linked to got a 1st from Queens in Belfast. The one from Newcastle did medicine at Edinburgh.
     
  20. Dark Horse

    Dark Horse · Well-Known Member

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    This is the info on his bio page:-

    Background
    Professor of Medicine and Metabolism, University of Newcastle
    Honorary Consultant Physician, Newcastle Acute Hospitals NHS Trust

    Roles and Responsibilities
    Director of Magnetic Resonance Centre

    Honorary Consultant Physician, Newcastle upon Tyne Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust

    Qualifications

    BSc, MB ChB, MD, FRCP, FRCPE
    https://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/staff/profile/roytaylor.html#background
    So he has a medical degree (MB ChB) and is a Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians.
     
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