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what is curing type 2 diabetes?

Drfarxan

Well-Known Member
Messages
149
if the beta cell function return to normal does it mean you cured your diabetes or will the resistance still be there and sooner or later your beta cell will get tired again?
what is insulin resistance? is it the overflow paradigm or the insulin receptors down grade theory?

Does LCHF reduce the need for insulin receptors or does it reverse the insulin receptor downgrade or does it simply resolve the coverflow paradigm?
 
Depends on many factors.
What is the main driver of the insulin resistance ?
If it's visceral fat with no underlying genetic component then there is some evidence to suggest that weight loss alone may return blood sugar levels to normal.
The body may need up to a year for beta cell function & insulin output levels to return to a non-diabetic state.
It may depend on durtaion of diabetes, diagnostic level at diagnosis & amount of weight loss.

You are never cured though, it's still there lurking, waiting for you to fall back into your old ways.
Another thing to note is that those in successful remission never seem to regain a full first phase insulin response comapred to a non-diabetic cohort, this means they will potentially spike higher after ingesting high carb foods.
 
Prof Taylor speaks of a condition he calls "post diabetes". This is where the diabetes has been reversed by visceral fat loss, and the beta cells restored to near normal health after having been unclogged of fat. However T2s have a genetic predisposition to store fat in the visceral areas rather than safely under the skin, so if they put the fat back on they will clog up the beta cells again. Hence it is helpful to have a name for reversed diabetes so that the patients can be followed and have their feet, eyes etc tested regularly in case they put the fat back on and bring back the T2.
 
if the beta cell function return to normal does it mean you cured your diabetes or will the resistance still be there and sooner or later your beta cell will get tired again?
what is insulin resistance? is it the overflow paradigm or the insulin receptors down grade theory?

Does LCHF reduce the need for insulin receptors or does it reverse the insulin receptor downgrade or does it simply resolve the coverflow paradigm?

Hi @Drfaxan,

Interesting question and sure one which most of us T2s have pondered on at one time or another. Personally, I've read some on this topic (some sources providing contradictory information as is so often the case in science) and have been pondering on why some of us become T2 (and others not).

upload_2020-6-11_12-0-27-jpeg.41991


Have you seen this graph by Dr. Ken Sikaris, a chemial pathologist, which shows that insulin levels on average are higher for people with diabetes than normal people? This even holds true for people with very high HbA1cs. It should also be mentionend that this graph includes Type 1s with no to very low insulin production -- just the results of all tests coming in to a clinical lab from various sources.

So looking at this, imo there is not necessarily a deficit of insulin in the majority of T2s (some might even argue the reverse is true especially for HbA1cs in the prediabetic range).

So, maybe one of the primary defects in T2 (at least for some) is not a lack of insulin or pancreas burnout? Then maybe the problem is somewhere else? Some evidence seems to point at a fatty liver instead. Some researchers have observed that a fatty liver keeps churning out glucose as it no longer responds to insulin, which would normally inhibit glucose production. So, if we eat (especially carbs) glucose increases, insulin increases, however as the liver doesn't surpress glucose production, this glucose is then added to the glucose coming from food and blood sugars increase way above what would be normal (and leading in turn to more insulin secretion). So, if we subsequently eat carbs throughout the day by having several small meals in a day and/or by constant snacking, insulin is elevated throughout the day (and thus preventing us from burning fat -- fat burning can only occur when insulin is lowish). Because insulin is constantly needed to control blood sugars, this might also prevent us from building an insulin store needed for the first-phase insulin response when we eat (a lacking or low first-phase insulin response is also often a defect in T2s).

If this is really one of the primary mechanisms of blood glucose disregulation in T2, measures which reduce constant production of insulin should help many of us, this includes low-carb/keto, fasting, low calorie, and/or exercise (facilitating non-insulin mediated glucose uptake). Consequently, allowing us (and our livers especially) to shed fat -- and some research seems to suggest that the liver is from where we first lose fat when insulin levels drop -- might mean that we are actually acting on one of the root causes of T2. The flipside of the coin then potentially is that medications increasing insulin levels for T2s (by giving sulfonyureas and insulin) might make the problem worse for probably many of us. This is why I believe that measuring insulin production in all newly diagnosed diabetics is absolutely essential before deciding on treatment.

Coming back to your question -- yes reversal (or even cure) might be possible, though some are more comfortable with the term control. It also implies if we go back to our old way of eating, we might be reversing the reversal. No matter what you choose to name this, the important fact is that we are minimizing chances of complications when we normalize metabolic processes (even when we use appropriate medications for this).

By the way, I recently listened to a podcast by Peter Attia and Gerald Shulman. An interesting fact mentioned was that in a study of college kids at the age of 20 and no weight problems, insulin resistance was already present in about half of them. Also, some studies show that descendents of T2 diabetics already seem to have some insulin resistance in childhood. This seems to suggest that genetics play a large role (though I might not really want to call it a defect when it affects so many people) and the problem arises when this genetic makeup interacts with the modern food environment.

Not sure whether this answers your original question. Just trying to think through some of what I've read and listened to in the last few years.
 
Last edited:
Hi @Drfaxan,

Interesting question and sure one which most of us T2s have pondered on at one time or another. Personally, I've read some on this topic (some sources providing contradictory information as is so often the case in science) and have been pondering on why some of us become T2 (and others not).

upload_2020-6-11_12-0-27-jpeg.41991


Have you seen this graph by Dr. Ken Sikaris, a chemial pathologist, which shows that insulin levels on average are higher for people with diabetes than normal people? This even holds true for people with very high HbA1cs. It should also be mentionend that this graph includes Type 1s with no to very low insulin production -- just the results of all tests coming in to a clinical lab from various sources.

So looking at this, imo there is not necessarily a deficit of insulin in the majority of T2s (some might even argue the reverse is true especially for HbA1cs in the prediabetic range).

So, maybe one of the primary defects in T2 (at least for some) is not a lack of insulin or pancreas burnout? Then maybe the problem is somewhere else? Some evidence seems to point at a fatty liver instead. Some researchers have observed that a fatty liver keeps churning out glucose as it no longer responds to insulin, which would normally inhibit glucose production. So, if we eat (especially carbs) glucose increases, insulin increases, however as the liver doesn't surpress glucose production, this glucose is then added to the glucose coming from food and blood sugars increase way above what would be normal (and leading in turn to more insulin secretion). So, if we subsequently eat carbs throughout the day by having several small meals in a day and/or by constant snacking, insulin is elevated throughout the day (and thus preventing us from burning fat -- fat burning can only occur when insulin is lowish). Because insulin is constantly needed to control blood sugars, this might also prevent us from building an insulin store needed for the first-phase insulin response when we eat (a lacking or low first-phase insulin response is also often a defect in T2s).

If this is really one of the primary mechanisms of blood glucose disregulation in T2, measures which reduce constant production of insulin should help many of us, this includes low-carb/keto, fasting, low calorie, and/or exercise (facilitating non-insulin mediated glucose uptake). Consequently, allowing us (and our livers especially) to shed fat -- and some research seems to suggest that the liver is from where we first lose fat when insulin levels drop -- might mean that we are actually acting on one of the root causes of T2. The flipside of the coin then potentially is that medications increasing insulin levels for T2s (by giving sulfonyureas and insulin) might make the problem worse for probably many of us. This is why I believe that measuring insulin production in all newly diagnosed diabetics is absolutely essential before deciding on treatment.

Coming back to your question -- yes reversal (or even cure) might be possible, though some are more comfortable with the term control. It also implies if we go back to our old way of eating, we might be reversing the reversal. No matter what you choose to name this, the important fact is that we are minimizing chances of complications when we normalize metabolic processes (even when we use appropriate medications for this).

By the way, I recently listened to a podcast by Peter Attia and Gerald Shulman. An interesting fact mentioned was that in a study of college kids at the age of 20 and no weight problems, insulin resistance was already present in about half of them. Also, some studies show that descendents of T2 diabetics already seem to have some insulin resistance in childhood. This seems to suggest that genetics play a large role (though I might not really want to call it a defect when it affects so many people) and the problem arises when this genetic makeup interacts with the modern food environment.

Not sure whether this answers your original question. Just trying to think through some of what I've read and listened to in the last few years.
Thank you this is very informative. Tim Noakes said in one of his youtube video that he thinks being insulin resistance might have been some adaptation(positive) in human evolution. Maybe we are natural suppose to on a keto or LC diet. Aparently humans survive longer when using keto as fuel.
As for beta cell they can recover not as before but maybe if the insulin resistant gene is “activated” it won’t make much of a difference if it recovers.

 
My take on a typical T2 is that fat build-up throughout the body causes insulin resistance but doesn't necessarily affect beta cell function. When the insulin resistance has gone thru a low-carb and body fat burning, the insulin from the beta cells can be used again. A C-peptide test will show high levels of insulin and hence the beta cells are working well.
 
One thing Taylor documented well was return to maximal insulin secretion comparable to a non-diabetic after 12 months of remission.
What he never explained, or focused on, was that the same data showed that the first phase insulin secretion rates were only 50% of a non-diabetic.

But there are outliers, n=1s in every study.
Here's one from Italy where bariatric surgery patients with T2 were followed up 3 years later.
40% of them had a perfect OGTT & the "c word" is even used.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4411432/
 
One thing Taylor documented well was return to maximal insulin secretion comparable to a non-diabetic after 12 months of remission.
What he never explained, or focused on, was that the same data showed that the first phase insulin secretion rates were only 50% of a non-diabetic.

But there are outliers, n=1s in every study.
Here's one from Italy where bariatric surgery patients with T2 were followed up 3 years later.
40% of them had a perfect OGTT & the "c word" is even used.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4411432/
Interesting article. The one thing they don't seem to have looked at is what the 2 groups ate, either long term or over the duration of the 6 days cgm.
 
The most comprehensive study on long term remission can be found in the Swedish Obese Subjects study which cover 20 years post bariatric surgery on 1,000's of patients.
Weight loss across the various types of banding are as follows:
Weight change.png

The remission data for T2 is as follows:

Remission.png
Remission time.png
 
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