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What is evidence?

Ian - your idea for a research project would be rejected by the medical fraternity as Sue said. reseach needs to be independant. I have been teaching recently at a local uni and some research I did on vitamins turned up an interesting fact - an expidition to the south pole nearly ended in disaster as they developed scurvy from a diet of fat and protein only - I will try and dig it out over weekend - i think the book is in work!

DMUk need to seriously look at their advice - I put my own details in and the meal plan was inconsitent in portion sizes and allowed me cereal bars, cake, ice cream and biscuits! I certainly do not advocate that for my patients.

Your analogy with 42 tablespoons of rice is not really a fair description tho!
 
DUK and the NHS may not be giving the right advice but are extreme low carbers?
We read on posts that high fat is nothing to worry about and you can get all your carbs from vegetables and some fruits. This may suit some but it is not a universal management strategy and other approaches do work.

Most type 2's have other problems including high blood pressure and high cholesterol and some have heart problems and neuropathies. One size does not fit all and whilst I agree that a reduction in the amount of carbs eaten is the way forward, that reduction has to suit the individual and not be dictated by others.

I managed my high cholesterol by eating things that low carbers would hold their hands up in horror if offered them. That doesn't mean that I am wrong, it means that I have a different approach.

The message has to be to lower your carbs to a level that suits you personally.
 
Catherine- I think it does vary across the Uk and also who they are getting the advice from - I have made it clear before that most doctors and other HP are very ignorant about advicing pts.

But I think it was DMUK sometime in the 90s who discouraged carb counting for type 2 - when I first qlualified it was the norm!

What I find interesting is that alot of people who low carb are actually eating less fat than they think - maybe that is because it is difficult to increase fat unless you start using oils etc over food.

I wish DMUK would stop encouraging the idea that eating sugar itself is ok when clearly it is not!

Happy new year

allyx
 
Hi ally,
It is a postcode lottery as regards advice for diabetics and it is probably unfair of me to state all NHS advice. My own G.P. and D.N. cannot be faulted so I don't think it is a mantra that has to be quoted by all professionals about eating high carbohydrate diets.

Catherine.

PS. I always think if you are quoted by you know who then you have succeeded in getting up his nose. Poor man, nothing of interest so just keeps copying. :wink:
 
Catherine, I looked through the article you cited. It merely says that the digestion breaks down the complex carbs. I does't describe the mechanism, ( despite some very pretty diagrams of molecules) The reason it doesn't describe the mechanism is that it would have to reveal that we have none for breaking down raw starches. We MUST cook stach before we can break it down and then we do so VERY quickly. It's a neat idea to say that complex carbs beak down slower than simple sugars, but the speed difference is marginal. Just look at the GI tables, which show the speed of breakdown. There's almost no diference between sugar and flour.
EVen the Rick Gallop GI diet has the starchy foods in the Red columns. Then it has All Bran as a suggested breakfast. When it is high GI
Hana
 
Ally
The peoples of the Arctic circle, who eat fatty meat and little else, don't suffer from scurvey so long as they eat the fat and internal organs of their prey animals. There's plenty of vitamin c in fresh meat.
Hana
 
hana - I know he is obsessed lol

This post code lottery is unfair I know but part of the problem is that alot of GPs are not interested in diabetes and that makes a huge difference. the GPs I work for are very commited to diabetes but some still think testing is a waste! maybe for some pts it is because they test occ and if it is high do nothing - i do not know how many people are like that but I suspect alot!

TBH - Vit c is not found in meat but it is in liver - I will check the amount mcance is on my other laptop. i think that the south pole expo does show how quickly it can develop though. I still think I was right to rasie the subject as so many of the low carbers i analysed had such poor levels in their diet. I know it was only a snapshot but it is something I am considering as a piece of research for my masters next year.

allyx
 
Hana,
This is not an argument about low carbing versus low G.I. so I don't understand your take on complex carbohydrates. I eat them, I digest them as do many others. I had to test everything in the beginning whatever it's G.I. value.

Allbran is low G.I. http://www.the-gi-diet.org/lowgifoods

All I am saying is that the level of carbs eaten has to be a personal choice, one that fits in with your lifestyle, is not too restricting and is easy to maintain. Constantly trying to maintain a diet plan that you are not happy with is a time consuming, pointless exercise. It also has to be at a level that manages your diabetes. Eating has to be a pleasurable experience and not something that you dread.
 
Hana

Absolutely no Vit c in meat of any kind - raw or cooked

19mg per 100g lambs liver and it does not change in cooked , probably because it is stored in the cold unlike fruit and veg which does lose vit c .

Maybe that is why the inuts doo not develop scurvy as they eat everything - yuk!

allyx
 
ally5555 said:
Ian - your idea for a research project would be rejected by the medical fraternity as Sue said. reseach needs to be independant.

Nevertheless it would give useful anecdotal info. More useful than limited & specific research topics that are extrapolated to provide dubious sound-bite conclusions.

I have been teaching recently at a local uni and some research I did on vitamins turned up an interesting fact - an expidition to the south pole nearly ended in disaster as they developed scurvy from a diet of fat and protein only - I will try and dig it out over weekend - i think the book is in work!

Why quote extreme egs? Let us stay practical! We are quite capable of adding vitamin supplements to our diet if that is advisable - though even that is contrary to medical & DUK advice.

DMUk need to seriously look at their advice - I put my own details in and the meal plan was inconsitent in portion sizes and allowed me cereal bars, cake, ice cream and biscuits! I certainly do not advocate that for my patients.

Your analogy with 42 tablespoons of rice is not really a fair description tho!

Its not an analogy. It is a direct quote from their latest diet booklet for T2s.
One portion is equal to:
• 2–3 tbsp rice, pasta, cous-cous, noodles or mashed potato - 7–14 per day
That is 14 to 42 tbsp PER DAY. In practice, it means NO RESTRICTION ON CARBS.
Click to expand...
 
Hi ian

I quoted the polo trip because ut really does show that a diet that consists of pure fat and protein is deficient.


It would be very difficult to get a study published Ian - journals do not like anecdotal info and tbh there are enough non low carbers on here to provide the same info !

Ok i see where you are coming from with the rice but practically no one would do that would they.
 
The reason it doesn't describe the mechanism is that it would have to reveal that we have none for breaking down raw starches. We MUST cook stach before we can break it down and then we do so VERY quickly. It's a neat idea to say that complex carbs beak down slower than simple sugars, but the speed difference is marginal. Just look at the GI tables, which show the speed of breakdown. There's almost no diference between sugar and flour.
Click to expand...
Hana have a look at the work of Englyst on starch digestion.
This paper describes the comparative digestibility of cornflakes, raw oats and white bread but is only one of many papers in this field.
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/42/5/778.pdf
You would be right to suggest that uncooked starches are less readily digested than cooked, but its definitely not the case that none is digested. Speed also varies considerably.
This difference in digestibility is also applicable to proteins. http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/128/10/1716
One very valuable result of cooking any food is to kill food borne toxins and parasites, maybe a reason why every society on earth (including the Inuits) cooks some of their food(uncooked polar bear can cause trichiniasis from roundworms)
 
ally5555 said:
Hi ian

I quoted the polo trip because ut really does show that a diet that consists of pure fat and protein is deficient.

I'm a Christian creationist - I believe early man's diet was fruit & nuts. Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: Meat was introduced after the flood.


It would be very difficult to get a study published Ian - journals do not like anecdotal info and tbh there are enough non low carbers on here to provide the same info !

Surely if they had the will, DUK could send out a survey leaflet in Balance, & publish the results.

Ok i see where you are coming from with the rice but practically no one would do that would they.
I was in a state of panic after diagnosis, with info overload about all the complications & a 25% probability of a heart attack. I was afraid NOT to follow their dietary advice, including eating complex carbs. I did calculate my carb consumption as 300-400 g per day, before reduced carb.

The weight of that 50% starchy carb advice is that CARBS DON'T COUNT. That advice damaged my health, & how many others? I may be "anecdotal" but I am 100% of 1 :!:
Click to expand...
 
Ally5555 stated: It would be very difficult to get a study published Ian - journals do not like anecdotal info and tbh there are enough non low carbers on here to provide the same info !

IanD said
Surely if they had the will, DUK could send out a survey leaflet in Balance, & publish the results
Click to expand...

Ian,
I am reminded of a remark made by something we all will meet one day, Death.
(Terry Pratchett. Hogfather.) :)

MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF.
 
cugila said:
Ally5555 stated: It would be very difficult to get a study published Ian - journals do not like anecdotal info and tbh there are enough non low carbers on here to provide the same info !

IanD said
Surely if they had the will, DUK could send out a survey leaflet in Balance, & publish the results
Click to expand...

Ian,
I am reminded of a remark made by something we all will meet one day, Death.
(Terry Pratchett. Hogfather.) :)
Does that mean we should not care about life before death?

MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF.

I don't know what you are trying to say, Cugila. The rejection of observational evidence may not be "proof" but it amounts to dishonesty & does affect our quality of life.

DUK are rejecting as invalid the testimony of those who challenge their high carb advice. Their refusal to examine their advice which, on their own admission, results in the progression of the disease, is SCANDALOUS.
Click to expand...
 
Ian - I spoke them this year and they told me they were reviewing the carb advice!

if you wanted a survey to look at this my feeling is that it would need to be done by someone independant - you could load the questions . I am not trying to be difficult but it needs to Be meaningful or it would be laughed at.
 
Would the survey show us anything? Anyone could answer anything to the questions provided and it would only include readers of Balance which is not a true representation of diabetics. It would be the same if it was done on this forum, not a true representation.
A survey needs to be conducted on a one to one basis between you and your GP or Endo to have any bearing on a change in attitude with regards to consumption of approriate levels of carbohydrates. They know your history.
 
I am thinking of doing something on carbs and type 2 for my dissertation - I would like to investigate further what people are eating and how carb restriction restricts other nutrients. keep you posted1
 
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