What is the HF in LCHF?

[Brunneria]

Hi all

Not sure why anyone would think Vit B6 would be deficient in a sensible (well formulated) LCHF diet:
https://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/foods-high-in-vitamin-B6.php

Or B12
https://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/foods-high-in-vitamin-B12.php

As for milk, none of us need milk in our diet after we are weaned from human milk.
There are plenty of sources of calcium and Vit D elsewhere:
https://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/foods-high-in-calcium.php
and
https://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/high-vitamin-D-foods.php
with sunlight being the best of them

Having said that, if anyone were idiotic enough to live on chicken, lard and cauliflower, I suspect deficiencies would turn up pretty quickly.

As for evolution - I can say that it is a slow old business, and a heck of a lot slower than selectively breeding wild grains into modern wheat strains, and wild maize into modern sweetcorn, or wild soya beans into GM crops.

I am not aware of a single nutrient present in grains that is not more available in other lower carb foods.

 

[Brunneria]

I think the indigenous peoples where potatoes and bananas come from may not agree fully with this. We were hunter gatherers so ate what ws available. There may have been grasses and wild rice available, before we developed agriculture.

Humanity did not originate in areas where potatoes (and poss bananas, but not sure on that) were found.
Then humans migrated and fed themselves on the foods they found in the new territory.
We are nothing if not omnivorous and adaptable.
But that doesn't make such foods necessary for our evolution to our current form, even if they became necessary to feed the population in some of the areas to which they spread.

Let's face it, for the human race to spread to all the parts of the globe it did, as a hunter gathering sprecies, then fields of golden wheat, potatoes and pasta trees simply are not necessary

 

[Lamont D]

As someone, who has to live by very low carb, and though I'm not lactose intolerant, I can't have milk or products of milk, except full fat Greek yogurt as part of my supper or breakfast.
I don't need supplements, either!
I have had numerous tests, to see what I can tolerate and it seems that I am carbohydrate resistant! My insulin dictates an awful lot of what happens to me!
Insulin is good in normal doses, bad when you have too much, I have that instead of glucose. Fructose I can have in small amounts.
Recently, a thread wondered how I got my calcium, amongst other nutrients.
I have no idea! Maybe, in the veg I eat.
There is a lot of conjecture to how much fat we need as part of a low carb diet, also what we cook our food in. I use full fat, but not from dairy, but mainly from animal fats, coconut oil, nuts.
Just to be clear, I very low carb and I have full fat from natural sources, no vegetable oils or rubbish like that.
I know what is working for me.
That is how I get my control.
I'm not interested in labels!

 

[Lamont D]

Brun has beat me to it!

 

[Oldvatr]

I have registered for the programme, but haven't yet taken the time to go through it. Is the programme LCHF or LC? I thought it might be the latter, but happy to stand corrected.

You are right. I went on an LCHF specific training module. It is not showing on the site now, and there is no mention of LCHF as a recognised diet, The LC blurb has the same presenter, the same modules, but the content will probably be LC only or LC LF instead. Cannot tell. unfortunately my email has lost all the links to the course i went on (30 day storage limit). All I can think of is that DCUK has withdrawn support for LCHF for the moment. A site search only throws up Forum references, nothing showing for the main site. Sorry, cannot help.

 

[Oldvatr]

Hi @Brunneria There is one group who would struggle to get B12, and that is anyone not eating animal products or Swiss cheese. Veggie burgers may be suspect too as I suspect the B12 is added during manufacture, as it is in cereals. But then cereals are unusual in a LC diet. Vegans may need B12 supplement, but then they are already aware of this anyway.

I am not aware of any deficiency by not eating grains either, but had to ask since my knowledge is limited.

 

[Brunneria]

Hi @Brunneria There is one group who would struggle to get B12, and that is anyone not eating animal products or Swiss cheese. Veggie burgers may be suspect too as I suspect the B12 is added during manufacture, as it is in cereals. But then cereals are unusual in a LC diet. Vegans may need B12 supplement, but then they are already aware of this anyway.

I am not aware of any deficiency by not eating grains either, but had to ask since my knowledge is limited.

As you say, the B12 issue is a potential problems for vegans whether they LC or not, so I don't see it as a LCHF issue at all, but rather a vegan issue.
And a relatively simple one to overcome, too.

 

[Avocado Sevenfold]

I've had a number of full blood panels done since reducing carbs and none has found me to be deficient in anything. As yet, I don't think there's a test for sense......... Ahem.

I think with any diet where some foods are reduced in any quantity, it makes sense to ensure where possible micronutrients are covered by other elements consumed.

I know @Brunneria has issues with lactose, and there are a number of Coeliac patients on the forum. @Avocado Sevenfold is certainly veggie, but not sure about full blown vegan.

Hi @AndBreathe Yes I'm vegetarian but having more vegan days recently due to family circumstances. I was tested for B12 last year and was fine. I don't worry about B12 because of my diet, but due to the fact I take metformin which I have read can cause B12 deficiency with long term use. I take a supplement as I have also read on here that it can help with neuropathy.

 

[AndBreathe]

I think we each have to become reconciled to the harsh fact that there is no "one true way" of dealing with diabetes, whether by virtue of food intolerances, other medical conditions or just plain old individual preferences. Here is the only place I refer to any way of eating as LCHF, I don't believe that title does anyone any good in terms of getting their head around it at the outset (such is the ingrained nature of our low-fat culture, of recent years), and also for wider acceptance; whether by family, friends, the wider population or health care professionals. I low carb. I eat more fat than I did before, but I am not as extreme, probably in either field, as some on this site. I have never sampled bulletproof coffee not have I eaten a slice of cheese, with butter spread upon it. On the other hand, it has been known for modest portions of rice or the odd roastie to pass my lips without resort to self flagellation or guilt.

If I am asked to sum up my way of eating, I refer to it as Reduced-Carb, Enough Fat (R-CEF). That d scribes my way of eating beautifully and nobody has swallowed their tongue whilst recoiling in horror yet.

I enjoy the way we eat now. My OH eats similarly, although he almost always has a biccies at 11sies, and quite often a sarnie at lunchtime, when I will tend to have the same sandwich filling with a handful of salad leaves, dressing and some nuts. Our rule is, unless we are out, we always share the same evening meal.

What works for someone works, provided they are achieving the lifestyle and blood results they desire, without being in any form of medical danger.

 

[AndBreathe]

Thanks both @Brunneria and @Avocado Sevenfold for pitching in.

 

[Oldvatr]

one vitamin that studies have shown to drop below RDA levels during LC dieting is Fplic Acid (folate). This partly because cereal product have to be reinforced with folic acid during manufacture, and LC cuts cereal products. Easily compensated for by upping the intake of green leafed veg such as spinach, broccoli, okra Asparagus etc. Sonny Eat yer greens.

Associated with this was a noted dropoff of iron, Compensate by eating animal products. Not sure what vegans do for this Molasses?

Also calcium noted as being reduced due to losing the cereals. .Again solved by green leafed veg (but not spinach) or milk products.

Amino acids should be covered adequately by protein intake. For this Tofu or milk whey can be used (Lidl Rolls?) or cheese, but once again vegans may have problem here.

 

[ickihun]

I think the indigenous peoples where potatoes and bananas come from may not agree fully with this. We were hunter gatherers so ate what ws available. There may have been grasses and widefinitelyce available, before we developed agriculture.

I have to ask - why is carb storage and burning the primary mode of metabolism? why does our body seem to prefer carbs? i suspect that it was difficult to kill wild game predictably in those days, and meat may have been rare in both senses. think paleo man may have still found carbs, else why did he bother to go to all that trouble to cultivate? of course, they could have lived on rabbits, but not for long.

I can only take experience from the 3rd world countries and observe their need for rice/carb to stop starvation. Not meat/protein or fat. (Well not as a huge portion of their diet)
Hence we need the opposite to put the breaks on obesity. It has been taken too far. Ultimately thou quantity definitely made a huge difference. Not just carbs.
Fat doesn't play a huge part in stopping starvation. Carb was for energy, long term which in excess changed to fat.
Is there anyone who has more experience as I am a bit limited but felt I needed to refer to my small experience.

 

[Totto]

one vitamin that studies have shown to drop below RDA levels during LC dieting is Fplic Acid (folate). This partly because cereal product have to be reinforced with folic acid during manufacture, and LC cuts cereal products. Easily compensated for by upping the intake of green leafed veg such as spinach, broccoli, okra Asparagus etc. Sonny Eat yer greens.

Associated with this was a noted dropoff of iron, Compensate by eating animal products. Not sure what vegans do for this Molasses?

Also calcium noted as being reduced due to losing the cereals. .Again solved by green leafed veg (but not spinach) or milk products.

Amino acids should be covered adequately by protein intake. For this Tofu or milk whey can be used (Lidl Rolls?) or cheese, but once again vegans may have problem here.

There is a huge difference between what a food substance contains and how much it the human body actually can utilise. Cereal contains lots of nutrients, only they are not easy for the body take up. I, for one vastly prefer my vitamins and minerals to come from more easily digested parts of more easily digested plants.

 

[AndBreathe]

one vitamin that studies have shown to drop below RDA levels during LC dieting is Fplic Acid (folate). This partly because cereal product have to be reinforced with folic acid during manufacture, and LC cuts cereal products. Easily compensated for by upping the intake of green leafed veg such as spinach, broccoli, okra Asparagus etc. Sonny Eat yer greens.

Associated with this was a noted dropoff of iron, Compensate by eating animal products. Not sure what vegans do for this Molasses?

Also calcium noted as being reduced due to losing the cereals. .Again solved by green leafed veg (but not spinach) or milk products.

Amino acids should be covered adequately by protein intake. For this Tofu or milk whey can be used (Lidl Rolls?) or cheese, but once again vegans may have problem here.

Bottom line is, if you don't fancy going headlong into your interpretation of LCHF, then don't do it. It won't work for you and you will have symptoms of something, whether or not you are actually suffering from it. Such is the power of autosuggestion, with self-autosuggestion being the worst variant.

When diagnosed, I was passionate abou not going straight to meds, even though my diagnostic tests were moderately high, if unsymptomatic. Had I gone on meds I would not have worked as hard to control my bloods, as I'd have been waiting to see the impact of the meds.

Maybe I'm just odd. No answers on postcards, please!

 

[Oldvatr]

I can only take experience from the 3rd world countries and observe their need for rice/carb to stop starvation. Not meat/protein or fat. (Well not as a huge portion of their diet)
Hence we need the opposite to put the breaks on obesity. It has been taken too far. Ultimately thou quantity definitely made a huge difference. Not just carbs.
Fat doesn't play a huge part in stopping starvation. Carb was for energy, long term which in excess changed to fat.
Is there anyone who has more experience as I am a bit limited but felt I needed to refer to my small experience.

Mankind as a whole has lived on a low protein, low fat diet since the Iron Age. The Lord of the Manor or the Tax collector took the interesting bits. Pottage was the staple peasanr diet in the middle ages. As you rightly point out a large portion of the earths population lives on a mainly carb diet. It is obesity and diabetes that forces us here to go LC. However, i accept that it is a useful tool that i intend to use for as long as I can, But i want to make sure I am doing it right, and not doing harm to myself in the long run. I mean, Atkins is time limited, as is Newcastle, the Paleo, South Beach. The only ones that seem unlimited are Mediterranean and LCHF, so hence this thread. Most references to LCHF in the forum seem to avoid the safety topic, and I feel like the Tarot card The Fool. What if someone does some deeper research and finds all is not rosy, and turns LCHF on its head?
it is early days for this diet, and we seem to accept it without question. That worries me.

 

[ickihun]

Maybe we should be asking posters when they started LCHF?
I'm fairly new to it. Nearly a year but I've stumbled all the way through. Not the perfect carber. Just before xmas I felt I hit a good run but hijacked by xmas carbs.
When was LCHF diet first mentioned on this forum? Who first experimented with LC living in modern day? Diabetic suffers or diet hunters?
Only they can tell us the long term affects on the human body.
Myself I don't follow it strictly so I cannot even say one year.

 

[Totto]

I have low carbed for a long time but didn't start LCHF until 2011, the reason we wanted to try it was hubby's neurological and other problems after a stroke. So we did strict LCHF for a while and as these things so often do, trickled down to me low carbing, hubby eating what I cooked with good appetite and stuffing a large bar of chocolate a day. Since my diabetes diagnosis a couple of years ago I've been strict LCHF. Running a farm eating what you grow and raise comes naturally so there is no lack of chicken broth or green leaves here, nor of fat mutton in the freezer.

 

[Brunneria]

Mankind as a whole has lived on a low protein, low fat diet since the Iron Age. The Lord of the Manor or the Tax collector took the interesting bits. Pottage was the staple peasanr diet in the middle ages. As you rightly point out a large portion of the earths population lives on a mainly carb diet. It is obesity and diabetes that forces us here to go LC. However, i accept that it is a useful tool that i intend to use for as long as I can, But i want to make sure I am doing it right, and not doing harm to myself in the long run. I mean, Atkins is time limited, as is Newcastle, the Paleo, South Beach. The only ones that seem unlimited are Mediterranean and LCHF, so hence this thread. Most references to LCHF in the forum seem to avoid the safety topic, and I feel like the Tarot card The Fool. What if someone does some deeper research and finds all is not rosy, and turns LCHF on its head?
it is early days for this diet, and we seem to accept it without question. That worries me.

I've seen estimates that put Victorian manual labourer calorie intake at over 4,000 calories a day.
That is the major difference between carb eating in previous generations and carb eating now. They HAD to eat carbs, or starve.
Housework, gardening, walking to and from school and work, woodcutting, fetching in logs and coal, working all day in unheated workshops, or outside... the list of extra ways to burn energy were countless before we got cars, electricity and gadgetry.

And with such energy requirements and activity levels carbs would be burned off much more rapidly than today.
- as any gym bunny or serious runner/exerciser will tell you.

In my opinion, modern life and the modern diet leave us with a situation where LC is necessary, when it has not been (so much) in previous generations.

Plus other environmental, chemical, pharmaceutical issues that I won't go into here.

 

[Indy51]

Mat Lalonde's talk on Nutrient Density at the Ancestral Health Symposium is pretty interesting - he's probably the ultimate geek and talks pretty fast, but he covers a lot of ground and did a lot of research analysing the US food database:

 

[Indy51]

This might be a good thread to repost the Credit Suisse review on saturated fat which can be downloaded here: http://publications.credit-suisse.c...fm?fileid=9163B920-CAEF-91FB-EE5769786A03D76E