What is the HF in LCHF?

SunnyExpat

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You are safe from me. This is the purpose of my OP, to find out what lurks within.....
The Google search I did ran out of steam after page 1, and most of the listings were referencing the same MIT report. Most of the 'reputable' reviews of the report (NHS, FORBES, Medical News Today, The Independant, et al) were making the same observation from the report that the mice were fed fat, became obese, and suffered in the same way as previously shown in studies, that obesity increases the risk of certain cancers. The consensus was that if you use a high fat diet in order to become obese, then there are consequences. the study did not replicate the conditions where the intake of fat is used to maintain a good body weight, but not to excess. I.E intake remains in control. I think anyone on LCHF is choosing the recommended oils and fats, and not bingeing out.

There was another study listed, and this was the link between breast cancer and a high fat diet. Again, the link to obesity and other factors could not be isolated from the result, and the result was inconclusive.

Having just lost a friend to colorectal cancer at a young age (48) //i am aware of the danger, but in his case he was a large man, not diabetic or obese, and eating 'Eatwell plate' type of diet as far as I could tell. But he drank alcohol regularly.

I think a single study is too early to cause a panic, but if you find other reports, then please post them here. There is of course the other study that seems to show a link between red meat consumption and cancer, and also the study that appears to link processed meat with cancer. My grandparents and boarding schools bought me up on bread and dripping, bacon sarnies, and Sunday Roasts. My Dad has just passed away aged 94. and he had a high fat diet too. My mother died from T1D, but she used fat like there was no tomorrow. So I personally think it is modern life, modern processing, and transfats that are just as reponsible.

You haven't put me off LCHF yet.

This is another (badly written) article out yesterday, that does make a reference to the effects of what is presumably ketosis and the PPAR-δ protein, it's worth a read, and maybe some further reading on the protein itself.

http://arstechnica.co.uk/science/20...-cancer-by-activating-tumor-prone-stem-cells/


The articles are written with the premise that 'fat makes you fat', hence the fat and obesity seemingly going hand in hand, but the protein appears to be the result of the high amounts of fat causing ketosis, so maybe a bit more digging is needed.
 

chri5

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My apologies if this has already been mentioned, but the OP asked about amino acids and my understanding is that eggs contain all of the essential amino acids. Apart from people with allergies, I imagine most people on a lchf diet eat eggs.
 

AtkinsMo

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I would strongly recommend that anybody interested in fat in our diets, and in particular the 'low fat' regime that we have been recommended to eat for decades, should read Nina Teicholz' 'Big Fat Surprise'. We used to eat natural fats, lard, dripping, butter etc. All of a sudden, not for health reasons, for commercial reasons, the big food companies found a way to make 'non food products' , like cottonseed, into oils and solid fats and marketed them heavily. Along came Ancel Keys and his dodgy science, the Fat / Health hypothesis was spawned, with absolutely no Randomised Controlled Trials, based on seriously flawed and biased observational studies. And it's just rolled on and on.
I'm not convinced that for generations peasants ate a diet made up of mostly carbs, I think they ate cheap cuts of fatty meats, offal, brains, tripe etc. Eating nose to tail, a huge range of nutrients. I try to incorporate home made bone stock into cooking whenever possible and plenty of offal. Chicken livers can be incorporated into many dishes un-noticed, even by my discerning grand-children!
When you seriously reduce carbs, you have to eat something. There are only 3 food groups, carbs, proteins and fats. Carbs we want to minimise, proteins we want to eat moderately (the body can make glucose from proteins and huge quantities put strain on the kidneys) fat, provided it is natural, is a benign alternative which has been maligned and vilified for no good reason. I eat oodles of extra virgin olive oil, moderate amounts of grass fed butter (from small dairies when I can get it but if not Kerrygold, which I am told is made from cows that are pastured for longer, which could be rubbish but who knows) and a little lard / dripping, and of course I no longer choose leaner cuts of meat, I look for marbling for flavour, taste and texture, if it's organic, even better.
When you buy a bottle of low fat mayonnaise, it isn't half empty. What has replaced the fat? Carbohydrates. It's not full of nothing (although it could have non food fillers, like wood pulp or 'wallpaper paste'). For me, Low Carb High Fat absolutely goes hand in hand. No I don't eat spoonfuls of butter, I don't drink mugs full of bulletproof coffee, I eat natural, unprocessed, real food that my great grandmother would recognise, prepared carefully and nearly always from fresh, raw ingredients. And nobody will ever convince me that it's not healthy, it has restored my health and my vitality, enabled me to lose 40lbs+ in weight, totally eliminate high blood pressure, GERD and get rid of all medications, as well as taking away the threat of diabetes. The science has moved on, why is the mention of High Fat seen as a problem in the HFLC diet? It is the core of it, it is the key to its success, if you don't understand that, you don't understand it.
 
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Oldvatr

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I asked the question, what is the HF in LCHF, Now I can reveal my experience on this topic. When I started LCHF, I weighed 64.8kg, which gave me a bmi of 21. My HbA1c at the time was 99. I started LCHF gently, gradually cuttting out the obvious no-no's and doing LC substitutes. I was also engaging my family to run with it with me. Just before Xmas 2015 I had another nurse appointment for bloods etc. My HbA1c was now 53 but my weight and BMI was unchanged, i.e. static.

We had an LCHF XMAS courtesy of the Christmas recipe ebook here on DCUK, and although my bgl still shot up over the week, it dropped back down to where it was pre-xmas in early Jan. And my family is now fully engaged in LCHF.

In Feb 2016, I weighed myself, and I was still 64,8kg unchanged. but my bgl had dropped to an average of 7,2 mmol/L. Since I have another HbA1c coming up in April, I decided to turn up the wick on LCHF, so I dropped the daily carbs as much as I can, and reduced a med to avoid hypoland. My bgl dropped to 6.4 mmol/L, but my weight in March had dropped to 59,3 kg.
Now I wanted my weight to stay with the same BMI as before, so I started to up the HF part of the diet. I started bulletproof coffee and Babybels and nuts in a big way. Now my weight is 66 kg, so i have got it back to where i want it, and I am now reducing the HF element again, I give bloods on Monday, so will find out where I am and hopefully this time i will have a lipid panel too,

So HF does control weight while LC controls bgl, and they are relatively independant of each other. Simple
 
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andcol

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nice post. I also find that I can eat more fat and put on weight. But I do find certain products have a bigger effect. Cream for example causes me to gain more than almonds and hazelnuts. My conclusion is that it is related to the associated insulin requirement with each food. Peanuts are my favourite way to gorge myself to add weight but they aren't as good as cream.
 

Oldvatr

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nice post. I also find that I can eat more fat and put on weight. But I do find certain products have a bigger effect. Cream for example causes me to gain more than almonds and hazelnuts. My conclusion is that it is related to the associated insulin requirement with each food. Peanuts are my favourite way to gorge myself to add weight but they aren't as good as cream.
I made the mistake of eating half a bag of cashew nuts because others here said they were low carb OOOPS! Big mistake! my BGL bounced up more than 7 mmol.L within 2 hours. Turns out the carb content was 35 g /100g of which sugars was 9g/100 g. Made a similar mistake once by snacking on a fruit & nut mix. It was a foreign brand, and did not list carb content.

I found cream did it for me.
Will be interesting to see what my triglycerides are doing. My GP does not do full lipid panels anymore, but i did write to him explaining that since my TC last year had been 7.9, then I really do need to find out what is happening in case I have that genetic disposition.
 

andcol

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Yes some nuts are interestingly high in carb compared to others with an associated long delay in glucose release - peanuts (ok legumes I know) and cashews. I find hazelnuts, almonds and walnuts (omega 3) my best buddies.

Interestingly roasted and normal have a different effect for me.

On an aside have they done a c-peptide test on you - I am amazed at your reaction to cashews.
 

JohnEGreen

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I'm afraid I can't eat nuts used to like them too. So that's one source of carbs ruled out for me at least.
 

Oldvatr

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To me HF means simply 'not low fat'
I think we need something to hang our hats on. HF may be being misinterpreted (?), but it is the antithesis of the Low Fat diets, so is appropriate. It is also a tool we have in the toolkit to control weight without interfereing with the other (bgl) control mechanism.

I keep having this discussion with people who only see the LC part of the diet, and refuse to believe that there will be some doing LCHF who at times will not want to keep losing body mass, and may wish to keep it static or even increase it. This is one of the major factors that make LCHF into a long term proposition, since we can go beyond the 8 weeks max that most LC diets are advised to keep to.

I do not have to stop doing LC when my weight drops too low. I do not have to stop doing LC when my energy levels need a boost. Unless there is some side effect that has not been identified yet, I can use LCHF to control my condition as I see fit. I am happy with that. I prefer to call LCHF as Lower Carb, Higher Fat, and its my best friend now.
 
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Oldvatr

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I am surprised that no one has raised the issues regarding gallstones or kidney stones, which are apparently linked to LC diets and sudden weight loss diets.

I have read some low grade blog type articles on this, but have not found any believable studies on these topics. Anyone got something to share? Anyone experiencing gallstone problems while doing LCHF? So far I have no personal experience, and do not wish to have any later.
 

zand

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I am surprised that no one has raised the issues regarding gallstones or kidney stones, which are apparently linked to LC diets and sudden weight loss diets.

I have read some low grade blog type articles on this, but have not found any believable studies on these topics. Anyone got something to share? Anyone experiencing gallstone problems while doing LCHF? So far I have no personal experience, and do not wish to have any later.
I would think it would be less likely on LCHF since it's the lack of fat which causes gallstones on other low cal diets. LCHF can be low in calories, but it isn't necessarily low cal. It certainly doesn't have to be 800 cals like some. I range from 1200-2400 cals on LCHF, so not very low cal at all.
 

Brunneria

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My understanding is that many of us have gall stones without knowing it. Often caused by low fat diets which do not stimulate the gall bladder to release bile, which then solidifies into stones. For this reason, the legacy of low fat just keeps on giving, eh?

These gall stones can be large, small, tiny... Then, when people switch to Low Carb and increase their fat intake, they may get symptoms of gall stones appear. Doesn't mean the gallstones arrived with the increased fat, it just means that the gall bladder is being asked to fulfil its function (release bile to assist with fat digestion) and is struggling because of the hitherto asymptomatic gallstones.

Symptoms can be triggered by suddenly tipping huge quantities of fat into a diet, but that is unwise for anyone!

Far better to introduce increased fat gradually, allowing the body, the taste buds and the digestive tract time to adjust.

I see gallstones as another long term health complication caused by low fat diets. And having seen my grandmother go through hell with gallstones, ops, and issues digesting fat for over 30 years, I wouldn't wish it on anyone - so I often pipe up when I see low fat posts denying the need for fat in the diet. Of course, people are always free to ignore my well intentioned info bite, but that is ever true. ;)
 

SunnyExpat

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I am surprised that no one has raised the issues regarding gallstones or kidney stones, which are apparently linked to LC diets and sudden weight loss diets.

I have read some low grade blog type articles on this, but have not found any believable studies on these topics. Anyone got something to share? Anyone experiencing gallstone problems while doing LCHF? So far I have no personal experience, and do not wish to have any later.

It will be another interesting discussion, as there appears to be no figueres ever given on what is a reliable quantity of fat to eat, to ensure flushing of the gall bladder.
The diet doctor refers to a study that showed 12g a day was adequate.
So that would seem to set a baseline.
 

Totto

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To me HF means simply 'not low fat'
Why is that? Why not call it normal fat?

To me LCHF means you get very little energy from carbs and a lot from fat. So if you get 5E% from carbs and 15E% from protein, that means you get 80E% from fat. Or in my case, around 150-230 grams of pure fat per day depending on how hungry I am.
 

SunnyExpat

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I am surprised that no one has raised the issues regarding gallstones or kidney stones, which are apparently linked to LC diets and sudden weight loss diets.

I have read some low grade blog type articles on this, but have not found any believable studies on these topics. Anyone got something to share? Anyone experiencing gallstone problems while doing LCHF? So far I have no personal experience, and do not wish to have any later.

The type of gallstone is also interesting.
about 20% are pigment stones, usually by not flushing.
80% are cholesterol.
Ironically statins can cause an increase in cholesterol stones forming in the gallbladder.
Rapid weight loss can cause stones, but by the method of cholesterol increasing during weight loss.

Another reason to watch cholesterol levels carefully.
 

zand

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Why is that? Why not call it normal fat?

To me LCHF means you get very little energy from carbs and a lot from fat. So if you get 5E% from carbs and 15E% from protein, that means you get 80E% from fat. Or in my case, around 150-230 grams of pure fat per day depending on how hungry I am.
Because when I discovered the LCHF way of eating I didn't know others were doing it. I didn't know it had a name. I just knew that the low fat manufactured products that I had used for years weren't good for me and they were making me fat and ill. So 'normal' fat didn't mean anything to me. What's normal? Most people cut down on fat even now, so that would be 'normal' to them. So I reduced carbs and stopped consuming low fat products. The actual percentage of carbs:fat varies with me all the time.
 
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Totto

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Because when I discovered the LCHF way of eating I didn't know others were doing it. I didn't know it had a name. I just knew that the low fat manufactured products that I had used for years weren't good for me and they were making me fat and ill. So 'normal' fat didn't mean anything to me. What's normal? Most people cut down on fat even now, so that would be 'normal' to them. So I reduced carbs and stopped consuming low fat products. The actual percentage of carbs:fat varies with me all the time.
I understand, fat is still seen as the devil. i do however believe that to leave HF to mean every level of fat intake above low makes it far too wide.