1. Get the Diabetes Forum App for your phone - available on iOS and Android.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Guest, we'd love to know what you think about the forum! Take the Diabetes Forum Survey 2021 »
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Diabetes Forum should not be used in an emergency and does not replace your healthcare professional relationship. Posts can be seen by the public.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Guest, stay home, stay safe, save the NHS. Stay up to date with information about keeping yourself and people around you safe here and GOV.UK: Coronavirus (COVID-19). Think you have symptoms? NHS 111 service is available here.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
Find support, ask questions and share your experiences. Join the community »

What Would Count as a Cure for Type 2?

Discussion in 'Diabetes Discussions' started by Grateful, Jan 13, 2018.

  1. AdamJames

    AdamJames Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,338
    Likes Received:
    870
    Trophy Points:
    153
    (Bulkbiker the text I quote from you is from another thread, I hope you don't mind. I also wanted to find something you wrote about 'passing' an OGTT but that's in yet another thread which I can't remember. Either way it stuck in my mind as a remarkable example of control and success).

    I just wanted to say to both of you, congratulations on your efforts and success.

    It's great to know that there is more than one way to get amazing results when tackling this disease. I find it really inspirational. I mentally log all examples like that, to build up a sort of list of things to try, and things to fall back on if the current idea doesn't work for me.

    Debates about optimal approaches are also very interesting and useful, but as with so many things, the approach that's the best for any of us is the approach that we can stick to and make work. And 'optimal' is likely to be very different from one person to another.
     
  2. midnightrider

    midnightrider Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,708
    Likes Received:
    1,816
    Trophy Points:
    178

    My concern is that when people are first diagnosed, they are more often than not overweight and physically inactive, eating too many carbs and too much fat and other processed food. A little physical activity (brisk walk for 30 minutes once or twice a day), and reduction in energy dense, processed foods have been demonstrated to reduce or eliminate insulin resistance / metabolic syndrome in many cases.
    Your argument appears to be, 'don't bother as you will only binge afterwards, instead give up all carbs, eat as much animal fat as you like and don't worry about exercise as it isn't important and anyway will make you more likely to eat rubbish'.'
    This may enable people to keep BG under control, because it is removing sugar/carbs from the body entirely. For people unable to control their BG through diet and exercise, by cutting carbs (but not eliminating them), and becoming a little more active (not hours of gym time, just moving about a bit more) this may be the only approach left.
    But for most people with a new diagnosis, surely giving yourself a chance of eliminating insulin resistance and metabolic syndrome with modest and sustainable lifestyle changes is a more proportionate approach.

    I'm happy to accept a lot of your arguments. Fat, particularly from unprocessed foods has been unfairly demonised and eating too much carbohydrate is harmful. I just think that the argument is taken too far. 'Fat is not as harmful as thought, so it is not harmful at all however much a person eats'. Evidence suggests that any high fat diet increases the likelihood of cardiovascular disease, it doesn't make it a certainty, but it does increase the likelihood. This may be too simplistic an argument, it may be that this is only the case when combined with other factors, but high fat has not as yet been shown to be without risk.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

    Messages:
    17,373
    Likes Received:
    11,758
    Trophy Points:
    298
    Have you ever sat down in front of a load of fat and tried to overeat it?
    Imagine a block of butter and eating it by the teaspoon full. How much do you reckon you could eat?
    Thta's the great thing with fat and no carbs your satiety triggers stop you over eating it.
    That's more my point.
    Also the psychology of the 'exercise reward", especially for the people you are talking about, is I believe a stronger factor than you think. I agree there will be those for whom either/both is beneficial but I also agree with the "can't outrun a bad diet".
    In my view diet is 90-100% of the solution, exercise is a nice to have if wanted but is in no way essential.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  4. AdamJames

    AdamJames Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,338
    Likes Received:
    870
    Trophy Points:
    153
    The same question could be asked of a bowl of sugar. I wouldn't fancy either.

    For me the real danger is when you combine flour, fat and sugar and put something like a 'Greggs' label on it.

    Is that good in that you aren't eating too much fat, or good in that you aren't eating too many calories?
     
  5. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

    Messages:
    17,373
    Likes Received:
    11,758
    Trophy Points:
    298
    You know my views on the simple calories in calories out fallacy...
     
  6. AdamJames

    AdamJames Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,338
    Likes Received:
    870
    Trophy Points:
    153
    So it's good that you aren't eating too much fat? On a LCHF diet? Sounds like a paradox, and one which is likely to help with calorie restriction.
     
  7. AdamJames

    AdamJames Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,338
    Likes Received:
    870
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Losing weight does seem to be a thing talked about often, whether people are eating LCHF or whatever.

    So even if calories-in / calories out is an over simplification, it seems that most people agree that excess body fat is good to avoid, and that diet is a good way to avoid it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  8. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

    Messages:
    17,373
    Likes Received:
    11,758
    Trophy Points:
    298
    Body fat not dietary fat though.
    Its all insulin at the base though.
    Avoid triggering insulin responses and you should find weight loss is easy.
    Eating fat has a minimal trigger on insulin.. eating nothing (intermittent fasting) is of course even more powerful but not because of calorie restriction but because of no trigger of insulin. A feasting and fasting regime should prove better for you and your body than calorie restriction. Eat to satiety not to an artificial level of "calories".
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

    Messages:
    10,578
    Likes Received:
    6,973
    Trophy Points:
    278
    The maths involved in thermodynamics is erroneous, it doesn't add up. See Dr. Zoe Harcombe's walk through explanation on youtube.
     
  10. AdamJames

    AdamJames Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,338
    Likes Received:
    870
    Trophy Points:
    153
    You've been very helpful in pointing out the importance of insulin, as have other members on this forum - a point easily missed for someone just starting to look into ways to improve their T2.

    I don't have the tools to measure what's going on inside myself, and I'm certainly not going to argue against the point you make about insulin.

    I'd go back to my point about individuals, however:

    Anything to make the loss of excess body fat easier has to be good. At some point I am likely to be trying the VLCHF and fasting approach you suggest - you are certainly a good advertisement for it.

    But for now, and I know this may be hard to believe, but I'd find fasting hard, and I find sitting still hard.

    It sounds silly because of course to "fast" requires that you do precisely nothing, where as to exercise requires time and effort. But that's just the way it is for me at the moment. I think we all need to play to our own strengths. Right now, body fat loss is my first-order problem to solve.

    Eating small amounts of food, 'to my meter' rather than LCHF, and enjoying walks, is working very well. I'm not even going to argue that it's optimal. Maybe VLCHF and fasting would be even better, but I really don't think I could stick to it anything like as easily as my current approach.
     
  11. walnut_face

    walnut_face Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,749
    Likes Received:
    5,109
    Trophy Points:
    178
    Dragging this back to the OP's question

    If, upon death, you have no 'complications', BG readings within range, and an HbA1c within range, I guess you were cured at some point :D
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Funny Funny x 2
  12. ringi

    ringi Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,366
    Likes Received:
    1,218
    Trophy Points:
    158
    That way the advice to take 10 minutes walk after a meal works so well, as people tend not to reward themselves with more food for doing the walk.
     
  13. AdamJames

    AdamJames Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,338
    Likes Received:
    870
    Trophy Points:
    153
    I've just watched this, not sure if it's representative of what you mean:



    I suspect the laws of thermodynamics are rock-solid.

    The problem comes when applying them to the metabolism of living things, and trying to use them to assess calories and mass. We don't (and probably can't) measure all the energy exchange process accurately in that scenario. we'd need to measure heat loss to the environment, heat gain from the environment, the energy still available in what is excreted, carbon lost in breath, the energy used in chemical reactions etc etc.

    So I agree in principle, when applied to life forms, energy in / energy out is a big simplification if we just look at things like calories input via food, and the mass of the individual.

    However, to "first order", the simplification works very well.

    For someone in my position, and for many overweight people with T2, focusing on calories in / calories out will get them great results. When they have lost so much weight that it starts to become difficult, then it's time to be less simplistic.

    And if they want to tackle something other than body fat, such as insulin resistance for other reasons (though it does seem strongly correlated to body fat among other things), then certainly calories is not the only thing to focus on. But from a purely fat-loss perspective, thermodynamics is a great place to start.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. AdamJames

    AdamJames Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,338
    Likes Received:
    870
    Trophy Points:
    153
    My main thought on that video btw was that she seems to have a lovely kitchen.
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
    • Winner Winner x 1
  15. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

    Messages:
    10,578
    Likes Received:
    6,973
    Trophy Points:
    278
    That wasn't the presentation I had in mind. When an equation/formula is wrong that is more than mere oversimplification. How far has CICO got us over the last 4-5 decades? Eat less move more may work in the short term but countless members will agree that weight lost using CICO is regained in the long term for the majority of people.

    Your comment on staying still while fasting has me perplexed, nowhere have I read or heard that one must not partake of any activity while fasting. Can you elucidate?
     
  16. AdamJames

    AdamJames Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,338
    Likes Received:
    870
    Trophy Points:
    153
    If the formula under question is calories in / calories out then I'd agree that either it's wrong, or that we aren't measuring calories in / calories out accurately. I wasn't sure if the laws of thermodynamics was what was being questioned - those I'm willing to stand up for completely!

    I was comparing two extremes for myself. If I had to choose between fasting or exercising, I'd find exercising much easier. Similar to the question of whether I'd rather eat pure fat or pure sugar. It wasn't a comment about anything anyone has suggested!
     
  17. AdamJames

    AdamJames Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,338
    Likes Received:
    870
    Trophy Points:
    153
    I've just re-read the bit that I wrote and I see what you mean.

    Where I wrote:

    "I'd find fasting hard, and I find sitting still hard."

    What I was thinking and meaning to convey was:

    "I'd find fasting hard, and I find not exercising hard."

    As in, I really enjoy exercise and if I spend hours sitting still, I get frustrated. Therefore I might as well make the most of that, and that gives me less need to fast, from a purely weight loss perspective.
     
  18. midnightrider

    midnightrider Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,708
    Likes Received:
    1,816
    Trophy Points:
    178
    Agree CICO is an oversimplification of a complex biodynamic, but it is a pretty good place to start.

    Calories in are either burned in bodily functions such as exercise and keeping warm, excreted unused, or incorporated into the body as muscle, fat etc. There is no magic here.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    #138 midnightrider, Jan 17, 2018 at 2:15 PM
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2018
  19. midnightrider

    midnightrider Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,708
    Likes Received:
    1,816
    Trophy Points:
    178
    I can understand the LCHF diet as a balancing of the risks of damage due to high BG/insulin, and the risks of cardiovascular disease, the first being more easily envisaged for an out of control diabetic. I don't agree with it until other options have been explored but can understand and respect it so long as risks are considered and weighed.

    However, the idea that exercise is unnecessary for anyone, but particularly a diabetic is extremely dangerous. I haven't suggested 'outrunning a bad diet', (indeed I have always said that cutting carbs and monitoring BG after eating are vital) just that a moderate amount of fairly light exercise such as a brisk walk is beneficial. Lack of activity is one of the worst things for a persons health, particularly a diabetic and is possibly the single most important factor in why people develop the condition.
     
  20. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

    Messages:
    10,578
    Likes Received:
    6,973
    Trophy Points:
    278
    Taking genetics aside, the single most important factor in why people develope T2 is the western diet imo. I do not think that anyone is advocating that excercise be completely avoided only that it is secondary to dietary change.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  • Meet the Community

    Find support, connect with others, ask questions and share your experiences with people with diabetes, their carers and family.

    Did you know: 7 out of 10 people improve their understanding of diabetes within 6 months of being a Diabetes Forum member. Get the Diabetes Forum App and stay connected on iOS and Android

    Grab the app!
  • Tweet with us

  • Like us on Facebook