What Would Count as a Cure for Type 2?

Guzzler said:

Taking genetics aside, the single most important factor in why people develope T2 is the western diet imo. I do not think that anyone is advocating that excercise be completely avoided only that it is secondary to dietary change.

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That would be my take on it also.

I mention exercising only in preference to fasting, not as an alternative to improved diet. Diet is my main focus. I'd say that I am 'eating to my meter' regarding carbs, but not feeling the need to replace those lost carbs with high fat at the moment, because I'm restricting calories in order to lose weight. Most days I'm probably on less carbs than many people who eat LCHF, I'm just missing the HF bit.

The only one thing where I've noticed I can get better results with exercise than diet is if I need to get my fasting bgs back on track quickly, but the level of exercise that requires is so great that I couldn't sustain it on a daily basis - it's just a quick fix.

I lost 60 pounds with out adding more exercise to my day to day. I was pretty active before I started LCHF and didn’t lose a pound after doing HITT for over a year.
However, I now have increased my activity because it feels good. I like how energetic and strong I feel after a swim or cycling.
I found when I no longer focus on the need to lose weight I enjoy a good work out. While exercise may not increase the chances of losing weight it has other benefits.

I find 'exercise' the most boring activity I can think of.
That is why I don't do it.
And that is why I yawn in horror whenever some over-enthusiastic exerciser recommends it.
I have far more interesting things to do with my life.
- like walking the dogs.

This plague of gyms and gym contracts, and endless 'eat less move more' advice is diabolical, and frankly it sets people up to fail.

On the other hand, encouraging people to go surfing, gardening, orienteering, riding, even (shudder) team sports, engages the mind as well as the body, makes friends, develops interests and might, just might, keep people moving long after that signed-in-blood gym Direct Debit is finally cancelled after the 90 day buy out period.

Brunneria said:

I find 'exercise' the most boring activity I can think of.
That is why I don't do it.
And that is why I yawn in horror whenever some over-enthusiastic exerciser recommends it.
I have far more interesting things to do with my life.
- like walking the dogs.

This plague of gyms and gym contracts, and endless 'eat less move more' advice is diabolical, and frankly it sets people up to fail.

On the other hand, encouraging people to go surfing, gardening, orienteering, riding, even (shudder) team sports, engages the mind as well as the body, makes friends, develops interests and might, just might, keep people moving long after that signed-in-blood gym Direct Debit is finally cancelled after the 90 day buy out period.

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Ah now if you're talking about exercise for the sake of exercise, I entirely agree!

I hate gyms.

I love the outdoors. Good for the mind, body and soul.

I admit however that quite often the final push that gets me out into the hills on dark, cold, wet nights after work is the thought that it might help with T2 and weight loss. However, once I'm out there, I'm in heaven. And I stop thinking about this whole **** T2 business. And I remind myself that even if it doesn't help with T2 in the long run, it will make me fitter and more able to enjoy going on longer adventures when the weather is nice.

AdamJames said:

Ah now if you're talking about exercise for the sake of exercise, I entirely agree!

I hate gyms.

I love the outdoors. Good for the mind, body and soul.

I admit however that quite often the final push that gets me out into the hills on dark, cold, wet nights after work is the thought that it might help with T2 and weight loss. However, once I'm out there, I'm in heaven. And I stop thinking about this whole **** T2 business. And I remind myself that even if it doesn't help with T2 in the long run, it will make me fitter and more able to enjoy going on longer adventures when the weather is nice.

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Yes.
And when my back and knees eventually give out (they really aren’t great), then i will continue to enjoy the dog walks from the seat of a mobility scooter - and get most of the benefits, even if i am not flogging major muscle groups to do it.

bulkbiker said:

Have you ever sat down in front of a load of fat and tried to overeat it?
Imagine a block of butter and eating it by the teaspoon full. How much do you reckon you could eat?
Thta's the great thing with fat and no carbs your satiety triggers stop you over eating it.
That's more my point.
Also the psychology of the 'exercise reward", especially for the people you are talking about, is I believe a stronger factor than you think. I agree there will be those for whom either/both is beneficial but I also agree with the "can't outrun a bad diet".
In my view diet is 90-100% of the solution, exercise is a nice to have if wanted but is in no way essential.

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Sheer nausea would stop me long before satiety kicked in!

This thread is about what would count as a cure and may have gone off track a little.

I will stick t my guns though, all evidence suggests that without some moderate exercise (and I have never suggested hours in the gym, just a daily brisk walk) metabolic syndrome and insulin resistance will never be overcome. Diet is essential to control the symptoms of high BG, but there can be no cure without exercise.
Eliminating carbs can keep BG values low as glucose is removed from the system. I can see the benefits as I have stated, but newbies should also be aware of the risks.
Anyone is free to do this but to advise new members that exercise is unimportant as many have done here is dangerous and flies in the face of all known evidence.

LCHF is living with the problem, avoiding its complications. You can't consider it a cure if you are unable to eat a banana or a slice of toast every now and then.

midnightrider said:

This thread is about what would count as a cure and may have gone off track a little.

I will stick t my guns though, all evidence suggests that without some moderate exercise (and I have never suggested hours in the gym, just a daily brisk walk) metabolic syndrome and insulin resistance will never be overcome. Diet is essential to control the symptoms of high BG, but there can be no cure without exercise.
Eliminating carbs can keep BG values low as glucose is removed from the system. I can see the benefits as I have stated, but newbies should also be aware of the risks.
Anyone is free to do this but to advise new members that exercise is unimportant as many have done here is dangerous and flies in the face of all known evidence.

LCHF is living with the problem, avoiding its complications. You can't consider it a cure if you are unable to eat a banana or a slice of toast every now and then.

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I am not too sure where your " all evidence " comes from. Maybe post some research on the subject if you have it?

My own view of exercise/ movement is a little different from what is outlined here.

It is as follows -
At diagnosis
modern food intolerance => high insulin => high blood sugars => tiredness => lethargy => hopelessness => comfort food => food intolerance => higher insulin .

CURE
Following LCHF => lowering insulin => lowering blood sugars=> system waking up => sense of energy => nothing is impossible => walking up this hill ? easy => not hungry anyway => go to bed + > reasonable sleep , forget breakfast ~> LCHF when I get round to it => lower insulin.

At some point in the process as your body recovers from the dietary load it has had, exercise/ movement no longer seems like so much of a mountain.

I currently live 2 km from my local supermarket - it is straight downhill all the way and a climb back. In my entire 59 years of existence it would never have occurred to me to walk . This week at the age of 60 I have "popped " down there for random things half a dozen times. The first couple with a young friend who moaned at the very idea that we could walk. I did it not because I am consciously exercising or walking, but because it was a nice day for some fresh air and I couldn't be bothered to get the car out. For many of us , the same process will happen, for those unfortunately confined to wheelchairs, they too will find themselves exerting whatever parts of their limbs actually do work, to a better extent than before, but frankly if you can't exercise , the diet will still help you, and if you don't want to exercise ( yet) the diet will help you change your mind eventually if you stick to it.
Thus to me focusing on the food is way more important than worrying about exactly how much exercise is necessary in the initial stages. I'm certainly not suggesting that movement is not important, I do think however that it is entirely secondary and for those unfortunate enough to simply not be able to exercise, the lack of it will not prevent the benefits coming through, even if a tad slower than the spring chickens who find they can take up exercise with enthusiasm.

I have Myasthenia Gravis to advise some one with MG whose, condition is not fully controlled or even is only partially controlled to exercise, is rather like telling a T2 diabetic to eat more sugar.

Despite that I have lost weight cut carbs and am in remission exercise has played just about no part in that if I had been able to do it, things may have been easier for me but you can get control of diabetes with the absence of physical exercise when you have no choice.

T2 cured: eat what you like, when you like with no lasting effect on bloods.
Are we there yet?
Not that I know.
I'm still working on control, diet and exercise when the body is able, so mainly diet.......

walnut_face said:

If, upon death, you have no 'complications', BG readings within range, and an HbA1c within range, I guess you were cured at some point

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That point is indeed correct and is included in the 2009 article: ‘How Do We Define Cure of Diabetes?’

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/32/11/2133

CherryAA said:

I am not too sure where your " all evidence " comes from. Maybe post some research on the subject if you have it?


.

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Try this
http://www.who.int/dietphysicalactivity/publications/9789241599979/en/

There are several dozen peer reviewed academic papers listed at the end which have been used as evidence for what has been stated here.
No big business or big pharma stands to benefit from the recommendations, only the people who take it into account.

Physical inactivity (6% of all deaths) is the 4th highest cause of global mortality after high blood pressure (13%), smoking (9%), and high blood glucose (also 6%). As increased activity can reduce blood pressure and blood glucose it may be the most important of all.

JohnEGreen said:

I have Myasthenia Gravis to advise some one with MG whose, condition is not fully controlled or even is only partially controlled to exercise, is rather like telling a T2 diabetic to eat more sugar.

Despite that I have lost weight cut carbs and am in remission exercise has played just about no part in that if I had been able to do it, things may have been easier for me but you can get control of diabetes with the absence of physical exercise when you have no choice.

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Agreed, but for anyone who can exercise, which is most people, it is beneficial to health.

Brunneria said:

Yes.
And when my back and knees eventually give out (they really aren’t great), then i will continue to enjoy the dog walks from the seat of a mobility scooter - and get most of the benefits, even if i am not flogging major muscle groups to do it.

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All debating aside, I do hope your back and knees give you many more years service!

midnightrider said:

Agreed, but for anyone who can exercise, which is most people, it is beneficial to health.

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Of course there are benefits to exercise if someone physically can do it. However I don’t believe that it is necessary to join a gym or train for a marathon to lose weight. The key is to increase insulin sensitivity so we no longer have excess insulin. I think low carb is much more effective for me.
I will no longer exercise just because I think I need to to loose weight. I walk, cycle, and swim because it is good for my mental health.

midnightrider said:

Agreed, but for anyone who can exercise, which is most people, it is beneficial to health.

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You will have no argument from me there. I used to run twenty miles a day weight train and take part in a whole host of sports it's one of the things I miss most but for many years for me has not been possible sad but true.

Grateful said:

So what would count as a "cure"? It would have to eliminate a chronic and progressive illness.

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I totally agree with the need for conceptual clarity here @Grateful. I think the difficulty lies in conceptualising Type 2 DM as a 'chronic, progressive' condition. 'Chronic, progressive' suggests a condition that has only one, downward, trajectory: it can only get worse. It doesn't offer hope, and may lead many with Type 2 DM to wonder "why bother?" - which doesn't do anyone any good at all.

AdamJames said:

All debating aside, I do hope your back and knees give you many more years service!

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Awww thanks. Actually (and even slightly relevantly) both back and knees have improved significantly recently. Coinciding with me giving up gluten (knees) and getting a desk chair with a tilting seat (back). Diet is key in so many things.

To prioritise excercise over and above diet for we that have T2 is imo extremely unwise. By that ethos my prospects for a longer life are doomed so I might as well give up now. No one is saying that some sort of movement, and all movement is excercise, is not great for overall health, rather that diet trumps excercise and should be the first thing one addresses after diagnosis. Even weight loss is secondary.

midnightrider said:

Physical inactivity (6% of all deaths) is the 4th highest cause of global mortality

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That is not what the report you linked to says.
It is a risk factor not a cause of death.. very few people (if any) have died from physical inactivity.
I agree that physical activity can assist in improving health but to claim it is a major cause of Type 2 is just silly.
Tim Noakes for example.. the running expert and Type 2 ..did his inactivity cause his type 2?
Sir Steve Redgrave that lazy couch potato...all the athletes that @CherryAA showed the results for.. no it is all diet and for the most part over indulging in carbohydrates.