1. Get the Diabetes Forum App for your phone - available on iOS and Android.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Guest, we'd love to know what you think about the forum! Take the Diabetes Forum Survey 2020 »
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Diabetes Forum should not be used in an emergency and does not replace your healthcare professional relationship. Posts can be seen by the public.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Guest, stay home, stay safe, save the NHS. Stay up to date with information about keeping yourself and people around you safe here and GOV.UK: Coronavirus (COVID-19). Think you have symptoms? NHS 111 service is available here.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
Find support, ask questions and share your experiences. Join the community »

When is a fast not a fast?

Discussion in 'Fasting' started by AndBreathe, Sep 10, 2016.

  1. AndBreathe

    AndBreathe I reversed my Type 2 · Expert
    Retired Moderator

    Messages:
    9,659
    Likes Received:
    15,719
    Trophy Points:
    178
    Please indulge me, because I’m a bit out of the loop on fasting. It’s not something I have ever fancied for myself and it became popular a while after my bloods and other stats came into a good place.

    In my mind, I envisage a one day fast as being a 24 cycle with the fasting person only taking on board water and/or black tea or coffee. Similarly, a 3 day fast would be a 72 hour span with the fasting person only taking on board water and/or black tea or coffee.

    However, on these boards I see some pretty different definitions, so I’m trying to decide if these count as fasts or if they are specific periods of very structured eating. One of the posts that sort of inspired this thread was something @bulkbiker posted yesterday where he described his fasting routine being broadly as I would describe as a fast, but with the addition of a Bulletproof Coffee, made with 2 tablespoons of coconut oil, added to a string coffee latte, made from crean and water. My curiosity was peaked sufficiently to put the bulletproof coffee into MyFitnessPal and returned a calorific count of around 1000, assuming double cream was utilised. Of course, it contains hardly any carbs.

    This post isn’t any slight on bulkbiker or anyone else, it's just bulkbiker's specific detail pricked my curiosity. I’m just trying to understand what we each consider to be a fast. I have no issue with whatever anyone chooses to eat or drink. It’s their choice, as is my way of eating my choice. It could be helpful to anyone new considering giving it a go though?

    I genuinely look forward to the feedback and fast-track education.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  2. Shar67

    Shar67 · Guest

    I would say if you are only drinking fluids then you are fasting, if the fluids are giving you a % of daily calories but are not replacements meals then it is still a fast.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Freema

    Freema Type 2 · Expert

    Messages:
    7,171
    Likes Received:
    16,935
    Trophy Points:
    178
    it is a widespread (global) expression to name it a fast when people do the 16/8 fast or the 5/2 fast, the first 16/8 is only daily hours of fasting ( 16 hours) and the 5/2 is 5 days of not fasting and only 2 days of fasting though having foods of about 500calories a day.....
    so fasting means very different things it seems
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  4. Pipp

    Pipp Type 2 · Expert
    Retired Moderator

    Messages:
    7,804
    Likes Received:
    12,799
    Trophy Points:
    198
    When I fast I have only water and clear liquid during the fasting period. That would be coffee, (without milk) , peppermint tea, or Marmite. I would only include Marmite for a fast period of more than 16 hours.

    I wonder was @bulkbiker doing a 'fat fast'. These have been mentioned, before, but I don't fully understand the logic.

    Of course there is a difference between 'absolute' fast, where no food is consumed for a period of time, and partial fasting, when selected foods are excluded.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  5. Jaylee

    Jaylee Type 1 · Moderator
    Staff Member

    Messages:
    12,794
    Likes Received:
    10,397
    Trophy Points:
    298
    In short. I would say the "definition" of a "fast" would be to abstain from a daily intake of any form of carb or protein, with only water (of course.) for rehydration..?

    I tip my hat to anyone who achieves this, wheather for weightloss or religious reasons..
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Creative Creative x 1
  6. ally1

    ally1 Type 2 · Expert

    Messages:
    5,357
    Likes Received:
    21,757
    Trophy Points:
    198
    I have never tried fasting days, I love my food too much to try it
    I would say a fasting day is where you would just drink water
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Pipp

    Pipp Type 2 · Expert
    Retired Moderator

    Messages:
    7,804
    Likes Received:
    12,799
    Trophy Points:
    198
    If I fast beyond 16 hours, which is so seldom it is practically never, the inclusion of Marmite is to replace salt. Prevents cramp.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  8. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

    Messages:
    16,619
    Likes Received:
    11,413
    Trophy Points:
    298
    As I have never counted calories I have no idea how many calories my BPC has -all I know is that it keeps me satiated for a day. As it is almost all fat or water then it has minimal (no) effect on my blood sugars. My 7 day "fast" was to see how quickly I could place my body into fairly deep nutritional ketosis ( a ketone level of more than 1.5 mmol/l) in this case it was on day 3.
    Over the 7 day period I lost 8 pounds in weight had my lowest ever blood glucose reading of 3.8 mmol/l (on my SD Codefree) and felt great. I ate no food so in some definitions it was a fast. Also I did have a half teaspoon of salt in a glass of water daily and tea with lactofree milk the rest of the time. I think we are all getting a bit too tied up with specific language. Did I have a hypo for example? I felt a tiny bit off so had some more salt and water.. Is it even possible for a person on no medication to have a hypo? I don't know.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Informative Informative x 2
  9. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

    Messages:
    16,619
    Likes Received:
    11,413
    Trophy Points:
    298
    Hi Pipp
    I guess it is a fat fast ..as I said above my main aim was to achieve nutritional ketosis which I did on day three mainly to kick start my stalled weight loss and also to see if I could do it! I have managed 5 days in the past (again fortified by creamy coffee although the coconut oil is a new addition). I was surprised how "easy" it was especially with the BPC.
    The aim of a fat fast is to get into ketosis as quickly as possible as far as my reading tells me and it seems to have worked. I also stopped using soya milk in my tea as a number of people on the 2ketodudes Facebook pages advised me that this was not helping my ketogenic diet.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  10. Pipp

    Pipp Type 2 · Expert
    Retired Moderator

    Messages:
    7,804
    Likes Received:
    12,799
    Trophy Points:
    198
    Would you have described this as a fat fast, @bulkbiker?

    Impressive result, I am intrigued by your method.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

    Messages:
    16,619
    Likes Received:
    11,413
    Trophy Points:
    298
    I guess it was
    M
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Pipp

    Pipp Type 2 · Expert
    Retired Moderator

    Messages:
    7,804
    Likes Received:
    12,799
    Trophy Points:
    198
    Sorry @bulkbiker my previous post was being written before I saw your reply.

    I don't dare to use coconut oil as a fasting ingredient. I would cheerfully eat a whole jar in a single sitting. It is truly delicious. I would mix it with peanut butter too.

    Great that you have found something that works.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  13. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Moderator
    Staff Member

    Messages:
    20,949
    Likes Received:
    34,589
    Trophy Points:
    298
    Throughout history and across the world, there have been so many different interpretations of Fasting that it beggars belief.
    Water fasts
    Bread and water
    Fat fasts
    Clear liquid
    Warrior Fasts
    Religious Fasts
    Fruit fasts
    Fruit and veg, no meat or fish
    16/8 (basically skipping breakfast)
    5/2 (500 cals twice a week, normal eating the rest of the time
    I could go on... And on... And on...
    ;)

    I don't actually care what people do, but it would help tremendously if people explained what they meant.

    When the word 'fasting' covers all of the above, i need a signpost or two. :)

    By the way, @Pipp my understanding of the Fat Fast thought process is that
    - calories don't necessarily matter
    - fat stops hunger and cravings
    - fat does not stimulate insulin, allowing insulin resistance to fall
    - fat encourages ketosis

    Personally, i am enjoying a period of Weekday Intermittent Warrior Fat Fasts (fat bombs to prevent hunger, where necessary, with a single evening meal every 24 hrs).
    Next week will probably be different.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Useful Useful x 1
  14. AndBreathe

    AndBreathe I reversed my Type 2 · Expert
    Retired Moderator

    Messages:
    9,659
    Likes Received:
    15,719
    Trophy Points:
    178
    As I tried to express, I wasn't trying to challenge the validity of your fast; how could I, but I was more curious for information (I'm always curious), but also keen to hear others' views, hoping this thread may help any new folks considering giving fasting a go that there are many interpretations of the term.

    I'd be interested to hear what effect your 7-day fast has on your weight over the next few weeks, as there could be an element of simply "less on board", compared to when whole food is being consumed. I'm wondering if you will actually regain some of that loss as your digestive system starts filling up again.

    Apologies of that last bit's a bit indelicate for anyone.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  15. Pipp

    Pipp Type 2 · Expert
    Retired Moderator

    Messages:
    7,804
    Likes Received:
    12,799
    Trophy Points:
    198
    Thanks @Brunneria

    In no means a criticism of anyone, or any method. Like @AndBreathe I am curious as to the definition of 'fast'.
    I understand it to be abstinence from all foods. So in my narrow definition a fat fast would mean abstaining from eating fat. Bear with me, and consider this, as it does appear to be an oxymoron and could confuse others too.
    @bulkbiker doesn't regard fat as food. Whereas I would. The most delicious food. Guess I am just green with envy of those who are able to use fat as a me hanism for weightloss and BG control.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  16. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

    Messages:
    16,619
    Likes Received:
    11,413
    Trophy Points:
    298
    No problem here as that is hopefully why we are all here to learn what others do and see if it may help us as well. I'm all for debate.
    Had a takeaway curry last night but still lost a little weight overnight.. although that may have something to do with some extra ballast being removed from my, as you so delicately said, digestive system this morning... three times!
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
  17. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

    Messages:
    16,619
    Likes Received:
    11,413
    Trophy Points:
    298
    Hi Pipp again
    I think that in Keto world a "fat fast" is when you only consume fat and a "water fast" is when you only have water.
    At least I certainly hope that's what they mean......!
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  18. britishpub

    britishpub Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,722
    Likes Received:
    10,575
    Trophy Points:
    198
    I agree that there are many different definitions of Fast, and many posters use the word to describe different regimes.

    However, in the main I think those undertaking fasts, like @bulkbiker are very open about what they are doing, and how they are achieving their goals.

    When I see the word "fast" on these forums I read it as meaning someone is trying to take a positive step to deal with their disease.

    And anyone prepared to go to the lengths of drinking that disgusting sounding coffee deserves props
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    #18 britishpub, Sep 11, 2016 at 7:39 AM
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2016
  19. KevinPotts

    KevinPotts Type 2 · Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,606
    Likes Received:
    4,309
    Trophy Points:
    178
    I'm of the @bulkbiker school of practice. No food, lots of drinks (hit/cold) but no milk, salt to cover depletion, daily supplements.

    Does the trick for me and without doubt sorts out the glycogen in my liver and enhances my BG sensitivity:)
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Prem51

    Prem51 Type 2 · Expert

    Messages:
    6,671
    Likes Received:
    19,859
    Trophy Points:
    198
    I tend to think of fasting in the religious context as I have fasted over Lent before. For me that means not eating until sunset. A stricter fast would mean not drinking too, but I do drink coffee, tea or water during the day. I think it must be much harder for those who abstain from anything to drink during daylight hours.
    Also 'sunset' means something different here than in places closer to the Equator, where sunset is around 7pm. I usually fast until 7pm.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  • Meet the Community

    Find support, connect with others, ask questions and share your experiences with people with diabetes, their carers and family.

    Did you know: 7 out of 10 people improve their understanding of diabetes within 6 months of being a Diabetes Forum member. Get the Diabetes Forum App and stay connected on iOS and Android

    Grab the app!
  • Tweet with us

  • Like us on Facebook