Why/how Does Fat Increase Blood Glucose?

[zand]

And you're the first person to mention it @zand. Has anyone else tested enough to find this out

Possibly not! A lot of us are low carbers and would never know because they haven't tried. I only tested because I had a pizza (first one in about 5 years) and wanted to see if my BG's were horrendous. They weren't. I briefly thought 'Yay! I'm cured!' Then I remembered the 'pizza effect' and kept testing every half an hour. At 2 hours my BG was 7.2, at 4 hours it was 11.4 and at five it was still 11.4.

 

[bulkbiker]

Hi guys, I'll admit that maybe I let frustration get the better of me in the earlier post. The point being that the initial post related to the use of insulin and the reaction of people's bodies when they have no endogenous insulin, such that it could be either type 2 or type 1, which is why the term used was "insulin dependent". I felt it was unhelpful for someone to post and say "Well fat doesn't do that to me so I don't need to comment any further". Anyone who is insulin dependent is very likely to see it happen, and that doesn't denigrate as to type. I apologise if I wasn't clear in what was written.

err slight misrepresentation there Tim.. I only left the discussion after you told me

"but you are not an insulin dependent diabetic. You have functioning beta cells, so the discussion isn't really relevant to you."

does that jog your memory...

regards
Mark

 

[Freema]

I am not even insuline dependant and I started this debate... I think every aspect of our diseases are interesting...and I think everyone is invited here, sometimes they overlap sometimes not, but all of us could in theory end up being insuline dependant

 

[Oldvatr]

but of cause 10 % of 50 grams of fat and 10% of 350 grams of fat is far from the same number

and if it creates insuline resistance maybe it has some importance what amount one eats and to what extent it contributes to the very problem that is in the first hand the diabetic type 2´s ground-problem

There is no evidence that I have seen that says fat intake is responsible in any way for T2 IR, but there is evidence that it can affect T1, The two do appear to react differently to fat intake.

I think current research is linking T2 IR to high levels of insulin in the blood for prolonged periods, whereas for T1 the effect of fat seems to be more transient. I would not use this as a justification for a low fat diet, I prefer to be advised by the recent research that shows evidence that a low fat diet is actually toxic.

 

[Freema]

There is no evidence that I have seen that says fat intake is responsible in any way for T2 IR, but there is evidence that it can affect T1, The two do appear to react differently to fat intake.

I think current research is linking T2 IR to high levels of insulin in the blood for prolonged periods, whereas for T1 the effect of fat seems to be more transient. I would not use this as a justification for a low fat diet, I prefer to be advised by the recent research that shows evidence that a low fat diet is actually toxic.

okay... thats interesting... but why is it different then... but nobody know -I guess

 

[Jaylee]

I am not even insuline dependant and I started this debate... I think every aspect of our diseases are interesting...and I think everyone is invited here, sometimes they overlap sometimes not, but all of us could in theory end up being insuline dependant

I know... Lol. I always check profiles before a reply, or ask about meds just to to clarify for those in the "know"..
In your case? I stick my neck out again & say more like a "diet" controlled query...

 

[Jaylee]

There is no evidence that I have seen that says fat intake is responsible in any way for T2 IR, but there is evidence that it can affect T1, The two do appear to react differently to fat intake.

I think current research is linking T2 IR to high levels of insulin in the blood for prolonged periods, whereas for T1 the effect of fat seems to be more transient. I would not use this as a justification for a low fat diet, I prefer to be advised by the recent research that shows evidence that a low fat diet is actually toxic.

Bacause (in short.) bolusing insulin as (in my case.) for a high (or normal.) fat meal don't fit in with the Novorapid working profile?? Hence we get "warned off " by "dieticians" to go normal fat... Or at least "poo poo" it.. That why the average T1 can't get their head round something like pizza or milk..... Lol even semi skimmed is an "SOB" for me!

 

[ickihun]

I have been T2 as well as now T1 I need to eat the same way as both. Vlc, moderate protein as high fat. Saturated fat and fried foods ( which I don't eat) make me insulin resistant for days and I fight higher sugars. Protein has a profound effect on my bs. I can see all this clearer as a type 1 as I find different foods in different quantities require insulin in different ways. Without fat I get a quick sharp spike even with just protein alone. Even add a few veggies (5 carbs ) and I spike. Now add some avocado and olive oil and much streadier. If I eat more than two oz protein at a time I need to split boluses or I hypo first. All macros require different insulin loads at different timing.
As a type 2 I could walk it off, as a type 1 I can take a correction bolus. But the different macros come in at different times and quantity makes a big diffference. I cannot random eat or I never know what I'm going to get. So I stick to the same macros at each meal and the same bolus. Yes, I still weigh my
Proteins. At least I kno what I'm going to get. Basically I think we are all pretty much the same. We are just at different progression and have different bs goals.
As I stated in the beginning I still eat the same way no matter which type I am/ was. One is really no easier than the other. Just different means of correcting bs. It's all a hassle lol

I guess different bolus treatment varies too? Or fat reacts same way regardless of which insulin treatment?

 

[Oldvatr]

And you're the first person to mention it @zand. Has anyone else tested enough to find this out? It would be very interesting to find out.

It is difficult to ascertain if a bunp is due to neoglucogenesis due to protein being converted to glucose, or if it is due to an increase in IR from high fat levels. I have quite a HF diet sometimes, but usually my meals only give the carb spike, and I test at 4hr PP The protein effect seems to happen overnight when I am asleep so I do not see any second bump except I used to get dawm whatsit when I had high glycogen stored. Now LCHF has cleared these out, I do not really see any change in am readings from last thing at night. I do not have a CGM.

 

[ickihun]

I guess different bolus treatment varies too? Or fat reacts same way regardless of which insulin treatment?

I think @Jaylee answered that. Must have typed at same time. Sorry.
I too get loose tum from insulin if a high fat food. Which confused metformin side affect a little on lchf. Consultant hated me on lchf on insulin treatment. Need less insulin units on lchf but doesn't help totally. My IR is very high.

 

[Oldvatr]

I think @Jaylee answered that. Must have typed at same time. Sorry.
I too get loose tum from insulin if a high fat food. Which confused metformin side affect a little on lchf. Consultant hated me on lchf on insulin treatment. Need less insulin units on lchf but doesn't help totally. My IR is very high.

I find HF gives me a 'un=constipated' result on the loo, in that I seem to have increased bile that lubricates things more than I was used to. Not the runs, so different from the Metfartin effect. This is how I know that HF extrudes excess fat by increasing bile.

 

[Brunneria]

How can an already insulin resistant person gauge their increased insulin resistance after a single meal containing carbs AND fat?

That is a genuine question.

T2s are insulin resistant - T2 is by its nature insulin resistant until there are so many beta cells killed off that there isn't enough naturally produced insulin to cope, and then we get prescribed more.
T2s are usually (but of course not always) overweight - which adds more insulin resistance.
Fat slows digestion. Fat and carbs => Pizza Effect and slow, late peaks (including chips and fried meat, pizza, and even toast with enough butter on it. Yes, I speak from experience). It is also perfectly possible to get waves of blood glucose rises and falls following such a meal. I have seen it on my Libre, on a number of occasions. Doesn't mean it is the fat causing bg rises. It is FAR more likely to be the carbs releasing at different rates when they hit different parts of the digestive tract, as the fat that coats them is digested away, or due to gluconeogenesis.

Personally, I don't see how ANYONE can claim that their 'increased insulin resistance' after a Pizza Effect meal is due to the fat.

The only way to test this is to
- guarantee the same diet, meds, exercise and insulin production/usage over several days
- then eat a huge Pizza Effect meal
- MEASURING the the actual insulin resistance before and after - presumably using the Insulin Clamping test.

Then repeat exactly the same diet, meds, exercise and insulin production/usage over several days, followed by a meal made entirely of fat. Insulin clamping again

Then compare the results.

With many repetitions.

I would be REALLY IMPRESSED if anyone posting on this thread has the equipment, time and lifestyle to conduct such testing.

 

[ickihun]

It is difficult to ascertain if a bunp is due to neoglucogenesis due to protein being converted to glucose, or if it is due to an increase in IR from high fat levels. I have quite a HF diet sometimes, but usually my meals only give the carb spike, and I test at 4hr PP The protein effect seems to happen overnight when I am asleep so I do not see any second bump except I used to get dawm whatsit when I had high glycogen stored. Now LCHF has cleared these out, I do not really see any change in am readings from last thing at night. I do not have a CGM.

On lchf 30g carb but 200-300g protein and 100g fats approx. with insulin injections I had a progressive increase as the day progressed. Eliminating insulin inj, or any diabetes med except for blood pressure, til late afternoon and then another inj pre Liver Block nibble before bed. Liver still dumped on me in lchf dieting.

 

[ickihun]

I find HF gives me a 'un=constipated' result on the loo, in that I seem to have increased bile that lubricates things more than I was used to. Not the runs, so different from the Metfartin effect. This is how I know that HF extrudes excess fat by increasing bile.

Yes. I'll agree not as toxic as metformin upsets.

 

[ickihun]

How can an already insulin resistant person gauge their increased insulin resistance after a single meal containing carbs AND fat?

That is a genuine question.

T2s are insulin resistant - T2 is by its nature insulin resistant until there are so many beta cells killed off that there isn't enough naturally produced insulin to cope, and then we get prescribed more.
T2s are usually (but of course not always) overweight - which adds more insulin resistance.
Fat slows digestion. Fat and carbs => Pizza Effect and slow, late peaks (including chips and fried meat, pizza, and even toast with enough butter on it. Yes, I speak from experience). It is also perfectly possible to get waves of blood glucose rises and falls following such a meal. I have seen it on my Libre, on a number of occasions. Doesn't mean it is the fat causing bg rises. It is FAR more likely to be the carbs releasing at different rates when they hit different parts of the digestive tract, as the fat that coats them is digested away, or due to gluconeogenesis.

Personally, I don't see how ANYONE can claim that their 'increased insulin resistance' after a Pizza Effect meal is due to the fat.

The only way to test this is to
- guarantee the same diet, meds, exercise and insulin production/usage over several days
- then eat a huge Pizza Effect meal
- MEASURING the the actual insulin resistance before and after - presumably using the Insulin Clamping test.

Then repeat exactly the same diet, meds, exercise and insulin production/usage over several days, followed by a meal made entirely of fat. Insulin clamping again

Then compare the results.

With many repetitions.

I would be REALLY IMPRESSED if anyone posting on this thread has the equipment, time and lifestyle to conduct such testing.

I agree as not just food affects IR. But using the info that IS available it indicates changes on a very regular basis. (Months or years) Those very same changes. (Patterns or traits)

 

[ickihun]

On lchf 30g carb but 200-300g protein and 100g fats approx. with insulin injections I had a progressive increase as the day progressed. Eliminating insulin inj, or any diabetes med except for blood pressure, til late afternoon and then another inj pre Liver Block nibble before bed. Liver still dumped on me in lchf dieting.

Protein I felt the culprit not fat. Fat blocked liver dump, especially the breakfast block worked the best. Cream in a coffee or cheese nibble or protein filled breakfast. All had same result no spike. All produced a progressive increase of bg awaiting dinner. (Maybe another liver dump or too much protein giving a knock on effect.)
Remember I get test strips for insulin so tested heavily on using lchf diet. Sometimes 8-10times a day.

 

[Kristin251]

As far as the pizza effect for ME, I would point to the saturated fat in the meat and cheese. I don't eat the crust but still get insulin resistant. They way I know that is my insulin doesn't go near as far, work as good and I run higher than normal for 3 days. I always say one bad meal equals three bad bs days and my 'bad' meals are higher saturated fat meals like a burger with cheese. I never eat additional carbs. Mono fats like avocado and mayo might raise me a bit if I gorge on the but nothing like saturated fats.

I have also read many times that fat IMPEDES insulin so to me that means i would need more insulin. I can't take it all at once or I would drop then spike hence the split bolus.

Fat is a funny thing and different fats have different effects of course. I try to balance all meals with the right amount of macros at each.

 

[Oldvatr]

How can an already insulin resistant person gauge their increased insulin resistance after a single meal containing carbs AND fat?

That is a genuine question.

T2s are insulin resistant - T2 is by its nature insulin resistant until there are so many beta cells killed off that there isn't enough naturally produced insulin to cope, and then we get prescribed more.
T2s are usually (but of course not always) overweight - which adds more insulin resistance.
Fat slows digestion. Fat and carbs => Pizza Effect and slow, late peaks (including chips and fried meat, pizza, and even toast with enough butter on it. Yes, I speak from experience). It is also perfectly possible to get waves of blood glucose rises and falls following such a meal. I have seen it on my Libre, on a number of occasions. Doesn't mean it is the fat causing bg rises. It is FAR more likely to be the carbs releasing at different rates when they hit different parts of the digestive tract, as the fat that coats them is digested away, or due to gluconeogenesis.

Personally, I don't see how ANYONE can claim that their 'increased insulin resistance' after a Pizza Effect meal is due to the fat.

The only way to test this is to
- guarantee the same diet, meds, exercise and insulin production/usage over several days
- then eat a huge Pizza Effect meal
- MEASURING the the actual insulin resistance before and after - presumably using the Insulin Clamping test.

Then repeat exactly the same diet, meds, exercise and insulin production/usage over several days, followed by a meal made entirely of fat. Insulin clamping again

Then compare the results.

With many repetitions.

I would be REALLY IMPRESSED if anyone posting on this thread has the equipment, time and lifestyle to conduct such testing.

From what I remember, the research that was published earlier this year used T1D's only, and they used standardised lab prepared meals. Their level of insulin in the blood was measured in vivo during the test, and the response to the same meal but with fat substituted on an equal calorie basis was shown to have a pronounced effect that they were able to report, It would be very difficult for someone to do this in a home environment using standard meals. It needs access to a blood analyser and possibly gas spectrometer.

I was suitably inoressed with their test methodology, which seemed to tick the right boxes for a serious study.

EDIT: My computer suffered a virus recently , anf I had to delete my browsing history, so finding articles is back to square 1. Even my bookmarks have gone. I think the research was done by either Michigan Uni or an Israeli Uni, but my memory fades at this point,

Think this is the study I read, but the report I saw was more detailed. This is just a synopsis.
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/36/4/810

It ia the Beth Israel Centre of Joslin. I said it was Israel something.

 

[serenity648]

I will let another answer this:
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/exercise-is-not-total-energy-expenditure/

wow. fantastic resource. I may be gone some time...................... thanks

 

[serenity648]

Possibly not! A lot of us are low carbers and would never know because they haven't tried. I only tested because I had a pizza (first one in about 5 years) and wanted to see if my BG's were horrendous. They weren't. I briefly thought 'Yay! I'm cured!' Then I remembered the 'pizza effect' and kept testing every half an hour. At 2 hours my BG was 7.2, at 4 hours it was 11.4 and at five it was still 11.4.

I had that happen to me a couple of times. Now I know, thanks to this thread, what is causing it and what I can do about it,