Why won't the NHS tell you the secret to treating diabetes?

oldgreymare said:

Well good to hear that you won't be starving yourself for more than 4-6 weeks going forward. But sorry, I still don't see the relevance of your self administered OGTs - when is your next HBA1c due? If, like so many on these forums, you wish to find a way to achieve non diabetic metrics purely on diet for the long term, then you will need to develop a long term strategy for eating that provides all energy/nutrients requirements - given the poor dietary advice in the western world since the 1970's it feels odd to think that carbohydrates are NOT essential nutrients, but this is fact. What is your protein/fat strategy for the long term to make your remission goals feasible?

Click to expand...

If you don't know where you stand on the diabetic scale (ie 3.9 is the bottom of normal,7.7 the top of normal, 7.75 bottom of prediabetic, 11 top of prediabetic, 11.1 and upwards diabetic, how can you possibly tell whether you are diabetic or not and how bad it is? FBGs are a simple guide, but only a guide as they can go down simply because you have lost liver fat and the liver has lost its insulin resistance and stopped dumping glucose. This is an improvement but not a cure. It does not measure everything. There are sophisticated tests that do, but they are only available in a research setting. My next HbA1c is overdue but I can't have it as I am shielding and can't go to the surgery for a blood test. Even so Hba1c only shows blood sugar levels over time so if a person has been reducing their blood sugar levels with drugs or other therapies such as low carb it will reflect their success at those therapies not the fundamental stage their diabetes is at without help. Or the health of their beta cells as the beta cells will have had the strain taken off them by the other therapies.

zand said:

And what if there never was any fat in or around your pancreas? What if the beta cells are simply aging? How will you know? When do you stop? Or do you starve yourself more and more trying to achieve a perhaps unachievable goal?

Click to expand...

There must have been, otherwise my genetic tendency to T2 (a particular pattern of fat storage which we all have) would not have tipped over into T2. And I don't do these tests daily, more like fortnightly as I agree with you that 300 empty calories from glucose is not normally a good idea .

Lamont D said:

Hi, I have reactive hypoglycaemia.
And to date I have had six extended oral glucose tolerance tests.
All supervised by trained medical staff.
If something happens to you if you drink 75g of glucose.
Which to a lot of diabetics is really irresponsible.
You don't need to do this.

You would be better off, if you kept a food diary.
This would answer most of the questions you are asking of a glucose test.
If you test before and after eating then one hour, two hours and maybe more, if you need to know your spike or other information.

Heed my warnings, because of my first one I went hypo and I spent fourteen hours in hospital because the doctors would not let me go home because I kept going hypo!

Keep safe.

Click to expand...

I agree. There is a risk of a hypo following a large dose of pure glucose. I make sure I rest afterwards and wouldn't drive.

Tannith said:

If you don't know where you stand on the diabetic scale (ie 3.9 is the bottom of normal,7.7 the top of normal, 7.75 bottom of prediabetic, 11 top of prediabetic/QUOTE]
.

Click to expand...

What are these numbers? What do they relate to, as they are not Hba1c or blood glucose levels. Hba1c of 11.1 is certainly not the beginning of a diabetes diagnosis.

What is your most recent Hba1c?

Tannith said:

I agree. There is a risk of a hypo following a large dose of pure glucose. I make sure I rest afterwards and wouldn't drive.

Click to expand...

I don't think you got my true meaning, pure glucose to someone who has diabetes, is going to suffer severe symptoms, mainly because of the quick spike it will produce, then as the more insulin and other hormones kick in, the drop is just as quick.
Intentionally rollercoaster ride blood levels will not give you anything but symptoms.
And if you do, a walk would be better than resting, the last thing you need is to fall asleep while your blood levels are coming back down towards normal levels.
And defo don't drive.

lucylocket61 said:

What are these numbers? What do they relate to, as they are not Hba1c or blood glucose levels. Hba1c of 11.1 is certainly not the beginning of a diabetes diagnosis.

What is your most recent Hba1c?

Click to expand...

My most recent Hba1c was 5.7, equivalent to FBG of 6.5 so I was told by someone on here. The numbers are blood glucose levels taken from Jenny Ruhl's book "Blood Sugar 101" as results of standard OGT tests.

Please @Tannith , re-think repeating your home ogt until you properly understand the difference between the various blood sugar measurement terms. You could be causing damage to yourself by continuing on this track.

I would not be doing my duty if I don't highlight the risk you are taking.

Hba1c is not the same as fasting blood levels, or ogt levels, or average blood sugar levels. They are not interchangeable, or the same.

Tannith said:

b it will reflect their success at those therapies not the fundamental stage their diabetes is at without help.

Click to expand...

Exactly as a fbg will and even the OGTT. It is those therapies that improve the diabetes same as you vlc therapy does. You seem to think low carb simply masks it. It actually improves insulin sensitivity, in a similar way to very low calorie but without the risk to metabolic slow down, hunger, lack of energy or nutrient deficiencies.

lucylocket61 said:

Please @Tannith , re-think repeating your home ogt until you properly understand the difference between the various blood sugar measurement terms. You could be causing damage to yourself by continuing on this track.

I would not be doing my duty if I don't highlight the risk you are taking.

Hba1c is not the same as fasting blood levels, or ogt levels, or average blood sugar levels. They are not interchangeable, or the same.

Click to expand...

I understand them very well. Indeed I have explained them several times myself in my posts above. I did forget momentarily as I typed that the 6.5 that @Jim Lahey originally told me about upthread was average blood sugar not FBG. Too used to typing the abbreviation I think!
The very reason I do the OGT is because I perfectly well understand that it is different from the Hbac and FBG measurements that we all do all the time. And far more relevant to our diabetic status. It is much less subject to bias by the use of drugs or low carbing. As I have already explained more than once above, FBG can sometimes only reflect the level of liver dumping which in turn is related to liver fat levels. These can be reduced some time before the beta cells are restored to normal. And I have also explained that Hba1c is only a measure of blood sugar control, not necessarily of degree of progress of diabetes. Unless of course you are not using any artificial therapies such as drugs or low carb to lower your blood sugar in which case it could potentially give a true picture.

HSSS said:

Exactly as a fbg will and even the OGTT. It is those therapies that improve the diabetes same as you vlc therapy does. You seem to think low carb simply masks it. It actually improves insulin sensitivity, in a similar way to very low calorie but without the risk to metabolic slow down, hunger, lack of energy or nutrient deficiencies.

Click to expand...

Do you have a reference for how low carb purports to reduce insulin sensitivity?

Tannith said:

Do you have a reference for how low carb purports to reduce insulin sensitivity?

Click to expand...

Right now not to hand but it’s everywhere and not difficult to find if you look past your low calorie mindset - and it does not purport it does. Oh and it increases sensitivity not reduces it. When I have a few minutes I’ll add them here if no one else has by then or you haven’t found it for yourself. Fundamentally it’s the same mechanism of reducing visceral fat, improving fatty liver disease and importantly reducing hypoglycaemia.

This is my third post advising you not to continue with a glucose test at home.

If you can talk to your GP, or any care provider member of the NHS, you just don't understand why this is so dangerous!

You don't have to do it, and you can get what you want over time, with all the usual testing.

Why don't you test your insulin levels?
If you have diabetes, it is probably caused by insulin resistance, and if the diagnosis is because of that the chances you have too much circulating insulin, which effects your insulin response and again your insulin resistance.

At all my eOGTTs, my bloods were taken many times as well as finger prick testing.
These included, c-peptide, GAD, insulin levels and a few other things, like platelets, red cells and white cells.
These full blood panel tests were sent to a private laboratory, who are specifically for rare conditions.
As I said before, the goal for you should be controlled dietary intake, the less carbs the better.
And eat to your glucometer. What you are doing is OTT, and unnecessary. And you are doing yourself self harm.
Please speak to doctor!

Lamont D said:

This is my third post advising you not to continue with a glucose test at home.

If you can talk to your GP, or any care provider member of the NHS, you just don't understand why this is so dangerous!

You don't have to do it, and you can get what you want over time, with all the usual testing.

Why don't you test your insulin levels?
If you have diabetes, it is probably caused by insulin resistance, and if the diagnosis is because of that the chances you have too much circulating insulin, which effects your insulin response and again your insulin resistance.

At all my eOGTTs, my bloods were taken many times as well as finger prick testing.
These included, c-peptide, GAD, insulin levels and a few other things, like platelets, red cells and white cells.
These full blood panel tests were sent to a private laboratory, who are specifically for rare conditions.
As I said before, the goal for you should be controlled dietary intake, the less carbs the better.
And eat to your glucometer. What you are doing is OTT, and unnecessary. And you are doing yourself self harm.
Please speak to doctor!

Click to expand...

"Is It Bad to Lose Weight Too Quickly?
It’s normal to want to lose weight as fast as possible.
But you’ve probably been told that it’s better to lose weight at a slow, steady pace.
That’s because most studies show that people who lose weight slowly are more likely to keep it off long-term. Losing weight slowly also comes with far fewer health risks (1, 2Trusted Source, 3Trusted Source).
However, several recent studies have found that rapid weight loss might be just as good and safe as slow weight loss (4, 5Trusted Source).
So is it actually bad for you to lose weight fast? This article digs into the research to uncover the truth.
According to many experts, losing 1–2 pounds (0.45–0.9 kg) per week is a healthy and safe rate (1, 2Trusted Source, 3Trusted Source).
Losing more than that is considered too fast and could put you at risk of many health problems, including muscle loss, gallstones, nutritional deficiencies and a drop in metabolism (4, 6Trusted Source, 7Trusted Source, 8).
The most common ways that people try to lose weight fast are by exercising a lot, and by following a”crash diet” or a very low-calorie diet of fewer than 800 calories per day."
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/losing-weight-too-fast
I am eating 1000 cals a day, as I have said before - my "wimp's" version of ND. I am losing just under 1lb per week. This is not drastic. Three quarters of the nation is probably on a slimming diet this month. They usually are in January.
As to the 75 g glucose used for the fortnightly OGT test, the average woman eats around 2000 cals a day, around 50% of them from carbs. That's 1000 carbs calories or 250 g carbs per day. That's an average of about 83 grams of carbs per MEAL ie 3 times a day, not once a fortnight. Yet they are not dropping down dead all around us. And plenty of people regularly drink full sugar pop. One serving of some of these will have 75 carb cals in them. I would never do that, but it is nevertheless commonplace. PS and if the OGT is so dangerous how come the medics of every country, not just the NHS, do it as standard?

Richard'63 said:

I see that this place is still as crazy as it was when I stopped regularly contributing.

Click to expand...

I was absolutely devastated to find that I was T2, and as it is widely known that there is only one way to completely reverse it ie weight loss I started on a diet straight away. We have known for decades that weight loss can prevent prediabetes from progressing to full blown T2, and that since long before Prof Taylor proved the actual mechanism involved. Weight loss is standard advice from the NHS on diagnosis of T2 diabetes, and has been for decades. It surprises me that so many people seem content to accept their T2 and not even try to reverse it. Of course there is only a 60% chance that the diet will work if you have had T2 for more than 6 years, as your beta cell could have been irreversibly damaged in that time. But it's a good chance and I am astonished that so few people even try.

Diagnosed with Type 2 Diabetes in September 2020 and GP prescribed daily Metformin. I’ve switched to Canderel for my two daily cups of tea; reduced carbs to once per week and not eaten any chocolate since Christmas. My weight remains the same, despite my 8 glasses of water daily. I’ve had terrible stomach ache for past 5 days and decided to ditch Metformin yesterday to see if that helps. Did not take Metformin yesterday and won’t today either. Metformin changed my bowel habits from 2X daily to once every two days. Clearly I need to do more......

Tannith said:

I was absolutely devastated to find that I was T2, and as it is widely known that there is only one way to completely reverse it ie weight loss I started on a diet straight away. We have known for decades that weight loss can prevent prediabetes from progressing to full blown T2, and that since long before Prof Taylor proved the actual mechanism involved. Weight loss is standard advice from the NHS on diagnosis of T2 diabetes, and has been for decades. It surprises me that so many people seem content to accept their T2 and not even try to reverse it. Of course there is only a 60% chance that the diet will work if you have had T2 for more than 6 years, as your beta cell could have been irreversibly damaged in that time. But it's a good chance and I am astonished that so few people even try.

Click to expand...

It is interesting how losing weight helps a lot of people. I was unable to go down the weight loss route as I was dreadfully under weight when diagnosed. My body had even scavenged the fat pads under my feet for fuel.

Luckily for me low carb saved me and I was able to come off insulin and thankfully put some weight back on. Unfortunately my body couldn't replace the fat pads under my feet but I cope with special cushioned insoles.

Just thought I would add that I am genetically pre-disposed to losing the fat pads under my feet and this would not happen to most people - even if they were very under weight.

Bethleen said:

Diagnosed with Type 2 Diabetes in September 2020 and GP prescribed daily Metformin. I’ve switched to Canderel for my two daily cups of tea; reduced carbs to once per week and not eaten any chocolate since Christmas. My weight remains the same, despite my 8 glasses of water daily. I’ve had terrible stomach ache for past 5 days and decided to ditch Metformin yesterday to see if that helps. Did not take Metformin yesterday and won’t today either. Metformin changed my bowel habits from 2X daily to once every two days. Clearly I need to do more......

Click to expand...

If you have cut down on carb consumption then you are likely to produce less waste.
Are you on extended release metformin.. that made me constipated then had explosive results!
When you say you've reduced carbs to once per week what exactly are you eating at the moment? Most foods contain carbs ...
Might be worth starting your own thread too as this one has turned in to a single issue Newcastle Diet thread.

Tannith said:

... it is widely known that there is only one way to completely reverse it ie weight loss.

Click to expand...

Completely? Rather absolute

Tannith said:

it is widely known that there is only one way to completely reverse it ie weight loss .....We have known for decades that weight loss can prevent prediabetes from progressing to full blown T2, .... Weight loss is standard advice from the NHS on diagnosis of T2 diabetes, and has been for decades. It surprises me that so many people seem content to accept their T2 and not even try to reverse it.

Click to expand...

omit the only, recognise the can is not a will, and how well is that advice doing for the diabetic epidemic using low calorie methods? Weight loss is also achieved by low carb methods. And who in here is not trying to improve their type 2?

Once again our issue isn’t that weight loss might put diabetes into remission in some cases. It is your insistence that it works for all type 2 within 6 yrs of diagnosis (not even prof Taylor claimed that). Can you evidence complete total reversal, by any method at all, for type 2? For how long? Also that low calorie it is the only method that can achieve the desired weight loss. Low carb/keto has the same or even better results on weight loss, visceral fat and blood glucose (and even more importantly on insulin sensitivity) and the studies have been linked to many times. It also is without the risks of semi starvation, hunger and metabolism slow down.

you have obviously read a lot about the Newcastle methods. Can I ask have you investigated low carb to the same extent or anywhere near that? Or did you stop looking after the prof taylor reading?