Phinney and Volek start new online health practise

[Brunneria]

Wouldn't it be fab to see Virta, Diet Doctor, Fung, PHC and Diabetes.co.uk linked up a shared platform or hub?

Rather like Fung and DietDoctor are already doing. And I notice that Diet Doc host lots of videos including ones with Diabetes.co.uk staff, and interviews with Fung.

 

[Winnie53]

In the broader picture, perhaps it's best that they concentrate on re-educating doctors (and patients) in USA. If the tide is going to be turned, that's the place to start. I really hope this can be the beginning of something revolutionary.

Yes, this really is what needs to be done for the LCKD to be accepted by doctors in the USA. Dean Ornish's work is an example. It takes decades.

 

[Sid Bonkers]

Yes, this really is what needs to be done for the LCKD to be accepted by doctors in the USA. Dean Ornish's work is an example. It takes decades.

The real problem is that there are as many different types of LC diet as there are people who have successfully used them, you use the term LCKD but Ive never knowingly been in ketosis in my life, but, I lost over 5 stones (70lbs) in weight and have maintained that weight loss for over 7 years now and have had non diabetic bg levels since 3 months after my diagnosis when I had an hba1c of 12.6% and a bg level tested in the hospital at over 29 mmol/L.

Now is the diet I used any better or worse than the ones recommended by you or all the different on line LC diet gurus because they are all different.

I never added extra fat to my diet while others recommend drinking bullet proof coffee the thought of which just makes me feel sick, some members here eat only meat and aim for an as close to zero carb diet as possible some are vegetarians, some vegan, some dont eat this, some dont eat that, so whos right, you? Me? Other members here who have successfully controlled their weight and bg levels? Fung? Phinney and or Volek? etc? etc? etc?

So which low carb diet should doctors in the USA and the NHS adopt?

Maybe the way forward is simply to recommend a reduction in carbs that suits the individual...

 

[bulkbiker]

I never added extra fat to my diet while others recommend drinking bullet proof coffee the thought of which just makes me feel sick, some members here eat only meat and aim for an as close to zero carb diet as possible some are vegetarians, some vegan, some dont eat this, some dont eat that, so whos right, you? Me? Other members here who have successfully controlled their weight and bg levels? Fung? Phinney and or Volek? etc? etc? etc?

They are all right.. the common theme is reducing carbohydrate intake..
For some a smallish reduction is fine (you by the sounds of it)
For others like me I have had to go a lot lower and still spike if I have an excess.
But the overall theme of our success seems to me to be lowering our carb input until our metabolisms can cope with our intake. Some carry on taking meds which may help - others don't want to start on meds so maybe go a bit more extreme.

 

[douglas99]

The real problem is that there are as many different types of LC diet as there are people who have successfully used them, you use the term LCKD but Ive never knowingly been in ketosis in my life, but, I lost over 5 stones (70lbs) in weight and have maintained that weight loss for over 7 years now and have had non diabetic bg levels since 3 months after my diagnosis when I had an hba1c of 12.6% and a bg level tested in the hospital at over 29 mmol/L.

Now is the diet I used any better or worse than the ones recommended by you or all the different on line LC diet gurus because they are all different.

I never added extra fat to my diet while others recommend drinking bullet proof coffee the thought of which just makes me feel sick, some members here eat only meat and aim for an as close to zero carb diet as possible some are vegetarians, some vegan, some dont eat this, some dont eat that, so whos right, you? Me? Other members here who have successfully controlled their weight and bg levels? Fung? Phinney and or Volek? etc? etc? etc?

So which low carb diet should doctors in the USA and the NHS adopt?

Maybe the way forward is simply to recommend a reduction in carbs that suits the individual...

The problem is it's never going to be enough for some.
My dietician advised reducing carbs initially.
Well, she certainly suggested the pies, donuts, crisps, chips, and the rest of the 3000 to 4000 calories a day should be reduced to a 1000 or two less and using the eatwell plate, and keeping a food diary.
But that seems to be not a big enough reduction by some comments.
i then tried a very low calorie diet, and moved onto the Newcastle diet.
That seemed to have been acclaimed as low carb by some, simply as the calories are so low, everything is low, but others seem to think because it's a predominantly carb based diet, it's still too high, and real food high fat should be substituted.
Then we move onto fasting, with all it's connotations.
If we can't reach any consensus, I agree with you, and I doubt anyone else will come up with any recommendation that will satisfy even a minority, and each guru will continue to sell a new book with a very slight twist every few months.
(Maybe I'm a cynic but If it does go mainstream, their revenue will very quickly be cut off, so possibly continuous variations suit them better as well).

 

[Winnie53]

@Sid Bonkers @bulkbiker @douglas99 I'm in agreement with all of you in that there is no one diet that works well for everyone. My hope is that Virta doctors and coaches will individualize the low carb diets for their clients.

When I launched our local diabetes group a year and half ago, I'd already done enough reading to know that each person has to find the diet that works best for them, but at the same time, I believe low carb is a good starting point whether it's ketogenic, in the 50 to 150 carb range, or vegetarian.

This creates a bit of confusion for our members because our education meetings vary so much in content and emphasis.

For example, we listen to presentations/interviews with Phinney and Volek, but also Joel Fuhrman and Joe Cross. Eventually, we'll listen to something on the Newcastle Diet. (I need to watch all the videos on it and pick one. Suggestions would be appreciated.)

Fasting is another popular topic. We've listened to Jason Fung, also Michael Mosley presents Horizon: Eat, Fast and Live Longer on BBC.

Another area of interest for me is heart disease. Cardiologist Joel Kahn, M.D. argues that consuming large amounts of saturated fat may not be appropriate for patients with heart disease. And other US cardiologists, Stephen Sinatra and Mark Cook, don't encourage patients to eat foods high in saturated fat. I'm not sure one way or the other. It's personal for me because I have a 35 year history with glucose deregulation beginning with hypoglycemia so its likely I have heart disease.

A big question I have is how to support a healthy, diverse microbiome if we limit plant based foods too much or for too long. I think we're going to see more discussion on this in the coming years.

Two years into using the low carb diet, my husband and I are still adjusting our diets. And some of our diabetes group members are too.

 

[ghost_whistler]

The real problem is that there are as many different types of LC diet as there are people who have successfully used them, you use the term LCKD but Ive never knowingly been in ketosis in my life, but, I lost over 5 stones (70lbs) in weight and have maintained that weight loss for over 7 years now and have had non diabetic bg levels since 3 months after my diagnosis when I had an hba1c of 12.6% and a bg level tested in the hospital at over 29 mmol/L.

Now is the diet I used any better or worse than the ones recommended by you or all the different on line LC diet gurus because they are all different.

I never added extra fat to my diet while others recommend drinking bullet proof coffee the thought of which just makes me feel sick, some members here eat only meat and aim for an as close to zero carb diet as possible some are vegetarians, some vegan, some dont eat this, some dont eat that, so whos right, you? Me? Other members here who have successfully controlled their weight and bg levels? Fung? Phinney and or Volek? etc? etc? etc?

So which low carb diet should doctors in the USA and the NHS adopt?

Maybe the way forward is simply to recommend a reduction in carbs that suits the individual...

The fat issue should be addressed. Not in terms of health, but in terms of just how much. I've had sources across the net recommend such a range of fat intakes as to be bewildering. Some seem to enjoy drinking bulletproof drinks like there's no tomorrow, while others get by on so small a caloric value you'd think they were a sickly child!

then, when people fat adapt, they say they rarely feel hungry that you wonder they eat enough of anything to survive. It's confusing to me how people need such a large dietary intake, while fat adapting, when, i think it's fair to say, they are in possession of greater stores of body fat, than when they adapt and the body is now optimised to use stored fat.

 

[azure]

@ghost_whistler The variety is there so you can choose what works for you. We are all different - different bodies and different needs.

 

[ghost_whistler]

@ghost_whistler The variety is there so you can choose what works for you. We are all different - different bodies and different needs.

But that's not the position that's taken. People don't say 'pick your own' they say "you must eat 180g fat a day".

 

[Brunneria]

But that's not the position that's taken. People don't say 'pick your own' they say "you must eat 180g fat a day".

You are not reading that on the posts on this forum, where many, many of us are constantly saying that we ARE all different, and should find what works for each of us individually. For some it is keto. For others it is low carb. Some high carb with meds. Some low fat. Some eat a plant based diet. Some are zero carb. Some can't eat fat because of gall bladder issues. Some flourish on high fibre. Some can't tolerate fibre. Some have coeliac. Some have food intolerances.

We are all different.

If you read the wider forum, you will quickly see this. You will also see hundreds of people with all sorts of variations of different metabolic issues, and different expressions of their diabetes, all looking for what works for them. As unique individuals.

 

[azure]

But that's not the position that's taken. People don't say 'pick your own' they say "you must eat 180g fat a day".

Yes, they do - they say exactly that. Eat what suits you. If you're not happy with some aspect of a diet, then don't do it, or do it in an amended way that suits you.

This has been covered at length in your other thread. Please do not hijack this thread. If you're still concerned, re-read all the answers on your other thread and @Brunneria 's reply above and please do not take this thread off topic.

 

[kokhongw]

So which low carb diet should doctors in the USA and the NHS adopt?

The general problem is that officially they don't recommend low carb. And doctors get censured for recommending low carb. So giving us T2D an official low carb option is a step in the right direction...

 

[Sid Bonkers]

The general problem is that officially they don't recommend low carb. And doctors get censured for recommending low carb. So giving us T2D an official low carb option is a step in the right direction...

The Endo that was in charge of my local Hospitals diabetic unit was all in favour of lc diets I dont know his stance on fats though and I think that is still the contentious part. So not all HCP's are anti anything, Ive always found doctors quite happy to listen to what I have to say but Ive always fostered good relationships with them as I see that as the best policy.

Although I never met the Endo in charge I was put on insulin for the first year after diagnosis so was under his charge in the hospitals diabetic unit, I saw a SDN and a dietitian, I was truthful with both and in fact the dietitian had no real problem with my 60g carbs a day diet in fact she seemed quite interested in what I was doing, although she did advise me that I should eat more oily fish which I didnt as I dont happen to like oily fish particularly other than Tuna but she said that tinned tuna didnt count

I did get some negative comments from a few HCP's mainly advising me that my bg levels were a bit on the low side and a pharmacist who told me that T2's should NOT be testing even though she knew I was on MDI insulin! I just smiled and made a mental note not to listen to any advice from her in the future.

Ive never understood people who get into arguments with their doctors, I can honestly say that I have never met one that told me to do anything, Ive only ever been given advice and because of the positive attitude I adopt with my doctors they have always been ready to listen to me too, we have at times agreed to differ but that happens in all walks of life.

 

[kokhongw]

@Sid Bonkers great that you had such a uniquely positive experience with your HCP.

Similarly when my endo suggest that I am crazy to consider low carb high fats because of some blogs/video/online forums and that the amazing improvement is unsustainable, I just smiled and made a mental note not to listen to any advise from him in the future. I don't believe in arguing with my doctors too. I just went to a national hospital for regular followup instead of the private endo.

Because of the positive attitude I adopted with my carbs lite fats friendly diet, it had helped normalize my glucose levels and maintained it since.

 

[Pipp]

Just want to thank @bulkbiker for sharing this info from his reading and research. Very useful info.
Agree with others that there are several similar programmes, and would be cautious about subscribing to any before careful scrutiny. The promising thing I take from all of them is that there is a shift away from the widely held opinion that T2 diabetes is a progressive condition with the inevitable need for increased medication. If the idea of reversal becomes more mainstream it gives hope to so many. Just need to get the info through to the health decision makers.

 

[douglas99]

@Sid Bonkers great that you had such a uniquely positive experience with your HCP.

Similarly when my endo suggest that I am crazy to consider low carb high fats because of some blogs/video/online forums and that the amazing improvement is unsustainable, I just smiled and made a mental note not to listen to any advise from him in the future. I don't believe in arguing with my doctors too. I just went to a national hospital for regular followup instead of the private endo.

Because of the positive attitude I adopted with my carbs lite fats friendly diet, it had helped normalize my glucose levels and maintained it since.

I think @Sid Bonkers certainly isn't unique, every HCP I met was supportive, and worked with me to find my way of coping.
Far too many posts on here seem to adopt the confrontational approach, and presuppose the HCP will offer a single solution, and then adopt a 'nod and agree, and ignore' approach, and won't listen to any advice, as they go with a preconceived viewpoint, and only seek agreement.

I've reversed my diabetes, and there is no way I could have done it on my own.
The NHS was a great success for me, but the key seems to be an open mind when you approach them, and sensible discussion, and remembering they have trained for years, and don't have an agenda, apart from improving your quality of life.

 

[kokhongw]

@douglas99 I would truly be so happy and wished my experience were more unique...and yours more common.

But from the many post here and the very mission statement of this forum there had been inadequate support and open mindedness from HCP around the world towards considering, acknowledging, accepting and supporting the low carb approach as a viable diabetes management protocol. Perhaps, just perhaps if more of them did...this whole platform would have been redundant and unremarkable.

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/our-mission.html

Finding the right diet: diabetes and low-carb
On the forum, we've seen a staggering amount of anecdotal evidence in favour of the low-carb diet. Dr. David Unwin, inspired by the stories he read there, has since conducted several studies, and found that the low-carb diet reduces HbA1c levels and aids weight loss in people with type 2 diabetes.

We don't push the low-carb diet onto anyone - for some people, it won't work. We encourage people to make their own decisions, and we offer our support regardless of what diet they follow. We urge people with diabetes to check with their doctor before making any major dietary changes.

That said, we're committed to providing comprehensive resources to anybody interested in following the low-carb diet. We believe dietary guidelines need to change, to provide more flexibility and encourage improved diabetes control, and it's our mission to demonstrate the benefits.

 

[Winnie53]

@douglas99 the "nod and agree, and ignore" approach really was my best option because I was only offered a single solution: metformin and a statin medication.

I like and respect my doctor. He has always given me excellent guidance on all things except diabetes.

To my health practitioner's credit, when he and his nurse saw my A1c result of 5.6%, down from 9.9%, and my daily test results on my glucose meter six weeks post-re-diagnosis of type 2 diabetes, thanks to the LCKD and walking only, they were incredibly supportive and encouraged me to continue doing what I was doing, but he still wanted me to take metformin and a statin.

Nine months post diagnosis I had an A1c result of 5.4% so they changed my status from type 2 diabetic to non-diabetic and I haven't heard from them since which is fine with me.

From the perspective of having volunteered and worked as an information and resource specialist for 27 years, for the most part, I've found that that our current healthcare system is excellent at providing care for acute conditions, but not chronic conditions. It's frustrating for the patients, also the doctors who care about and want what's best for their patients.

We have a lot of good doctors, the problem is not with them, it's with the healthcare system that they work under. In the USA, some doctors are becoming trained in functional medicine and are setting up "cash only" practices which allows them access to a broader range of lab tests and treatment protocols, and to spend the time needed with their patients. In the USA, I believe the average time spent by a doctor with the patient is 6 or 7 minutes.

I've always had good insurance and access to excellent doctors and specialists. That said, I prefer paying out of pocket to work with a naturopath or functional medicine practitioner for my chronic health conditions, and working with my primary care doctor for everything else. I also spend a lot of time listening to medical doctors, naturopaths, and functional medicine practitioners through their lectures, interviews, and books to piece together strategies to continue to improve and restore my health.

For me, it makes more sense to utilize both types of care, so that's what I do.

I do however understand your perspective. The care you are receiving is working for you and working very well. We have to each find what works best for us as individuals.

 

[Winnie53]

One of the things that gives me hope is the Cleveland Clinic for Functional Medicine in the USA... http://my.clevelandclinic.org/departments/functional-medicine If they can prove that their way of working with patients works and is cost effective, we'll hopefully see more clinics like it created around the country.

 

[bulkbiker]

I think @Sid Bonkers certainly isn't unique, every HCP I met was supportive, and worked with me to find my way of coping.

Reading so many posts on this subject on the forum I don't think you and Sid realise how lucky you were to have supportive and more importantly knowledgable HCP's. It certainly does not seem to be the case for the majority who tell their tales on the forum.
As I have said many times the Doc in charge of diabetes care in my practise had never heard of the Newcastle Diet, Professor Roy Taylor and had no awareness of LCHF. I am willing to bet I am one of the few Type 2's in the practise to have good control of their condition but the nurse is not in the slightest bit interested in how I did it even when I tried to tell her. I now seem to be left alone by them and just use them as a testing centre twice a year. I have not been called in for my foot check, which I have never had, nor my annual review.