Reversing Type 2 diabetes

[Freema]

The list of referenced reports is impressive, but I read the EPIC study referenced, and I have a few problems with it.

Firstly participants were requested to self submit personal details of lifestyle and eating habits. Now they used this info as prime source to identify the diabetics. In common with all the other EPIC studies I have reviewed, none has asked for this info directly, so relies on every diabetic owning up to it and agreeing to share that info, so not necessaily a robust data collection method.

Secondly on the 3 year follow up, they sent out urine test strips to again find the diabetics, Now I know that most of my screening tests since diagnosis have shown ZERO glucose levels, not even trace,

Thirdly, they have identified the mothers suffering from the Hongerwinter, and the severity of the deprivation. They have identified children from the same area being diabetic, and they seem to have found a way of linking a child to its respective mother but this mehanism is not referred to in the study description. How can they be sure that Diabetic <n> was exposed to a defined level of deprivation - the child does not necessarily know. I mean I know I grew up during sugar rationing, but was I severely deprived? From a child's POV, probably !

It is true that severe starvtion is expected to be grossly detrimental to a childs health, but if the link to diabetes cause is true, then this will show up as blips in the WHO database showing an increase in diabetes patients being treated which correlates to known famine events in the world (Ethipoia, Somalia etc) but the data seems to show it is primarily a Western disease but other countrues are catching up as Western culture and diet become popular. So is it a starvation event or decadent western diet causing rise in diabetes?

I Have not read the other reports, but the BBC one seems to be on cognitive decline rather than diabetes.

from what I have read of this famine in Holland, the famine was so severe and widespread and also took place in a certain period where the Dutch was not able to get hardly any foods at all.. the German occupants took all that there was available... to know at what period a certain child was starving in the mothers womb would be possible to see alone from the date of birth... and from body weight when born.... most people do know what weight they were at birth, it was a food deprivation where many people hardly got any food at all... so to compare it with a sugar deprived childhood is not really fair in my point of view .

you comment of the Somalia and Ethiopian famine sufferers not showing increase of diabetes cases might by the way be because that food is still sparcely available , but in the dutch suvivors there was a pattern of at least among the women to be more obese in midlife than their other sibling of same sex... and maybe the somali and ethiopian people do not become diabetic because they have usually not a lot of food available in the general population not even when a famine is over..

 

[JohnEGreen]

I would hypothesise that it might have something to do with gluconeogenesis ( ie the alchemy of the liver creating new glucose, primarially out of protein) - thats an equal opportunities process that would effect both men and women

I was just alluding to the study having been carried out on a certain group and was there for unable to draw any conclusion if the results applied to the general population. Your hypothesis may be correct in which case I think it would also.

 

[pleinster]

well, no-one is talking of extinction, it seems children who had a mother starving during pregnancy seems to become diabetic more frequently than their other siblings where the mother didn´t starve during the pregnancy, the adaption you are talking about can have many faces of which some are maybe not as totally flexible as you suggest.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3425424/
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081030110959.htm
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-11286462
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/70/5/811.full
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3857581/
http://io9.gizmodo.com/how-an-1836-famine-altered-the-genes-of-children-born-d-1200001177
http://www.naturalhistorymag.com/features/142195/beyond-dna-epigenetics
http://newsroom.cumc.columbia.edu/blog/2014/07/17/effects-of-starvation-inherited/

I wasn't talking about extinction...I was making the point (possibly ineffectively) that humans are still evolving and that part of evolution of a species is adaptation to environment (which I don't think is really in question...unless one is of a particularly closed religious mindset). Also, I was not suggesting that adaptation was totally flexible at all. That is why I said that mankind (like other life forms) is fragile as well as resilient..and why I stressed that much depends on environment and that adaptation is where possible (not always possible). Apart from climate, available flora and fauna and other environmental factors, time is also a very significant factor as change can take a very long time indeed. That said, some adaptations in the bodies of individuals can and do take place more quickly. I would add, however, that had there not been a degree of flexibility in some of the ways in which human bodies can adapt...we would not have made it out of the trees. I am absolutely not saying that we adapt to meet all needs...that would be nuts. It is however, worth, bearing in mind that stem cell research if funded properly may still be game changer in many areas.

 

[pleinster]

And here I thought I am devolving

I think the present UK government will try to change that in any way they can. I hope they are as successful as a diabetic on a bread and chips only diet.

 

[zand]

looking forward to your results

I gave up! I had recently halved my dose of anti-depressants and I don't feel ultra low fat is for me. I put on 2 pounds in 4 days (which I have now lost) and I gave up because I wasn't mentally alert enough to be safe to drive. I never got to my target of 200-250 g carbs, managing only 150g at the highest point. My mood dropped badly on day 4 and I feel my mental health is more important than my physical health. I am sticking to LCHF for the foreseeable future but am concentrating on reducing/eventually cutting out animal fats as I feel doing so may help reduce my IR.

 

[ickihun]

I gave up! I had recently halved my dose of anti-depressants and I don't feel ultra low fat is for me. I put on 2 pounds in 4 days (which I have now lost) and I gave up because I wasn't mentally alert enough to be safe to drive. I never got to my target of 200-250 g carbs, managing only 150g at the highest point. My mood dropped badly on day 4 and I feel my mental health is more important than my physical health. I am sticking to LCHF for the foreseeable future but am concentrating on reducing/eventually cutting out animal fats as I feel doing so may help reduce my IR.

I totally agree.
I think I'm over dissecting everything too.
I going to keep it simple, low carbs not to give severe palpitations and enough insulin to keep sugar damage away and reducing insulin need if I can.
Post op still same aim.
Endocrologist going to give me basal insulin if needed with a 'metformin need for life' written in my notes. We are both hoping no need for novarapid.

 

[ickihun]

Thank you for telling me your results. I have a feeling that they are typical. We are all trying to stave off heart attacks, strokes, fatty liver disease and kidney complication while we struggle with weight and metabolic syndrome and all its ugly complexities. All inter-meshed in tired advice protocols which we are confronted with by our physicians, one of which may or may not be the state of our cholesterol and its components while denying us more detailed and helpful lipids testing

Anyone know whether liposuction has any of the advantages of bariatric procedures?

In liposuction only the fat immediately under the dermis gets sucked out not around organs or deeper, I'm led to believe. Bariatric surgery is to curb hunger and food quantity. I want kiddies portion for life in the 600cals bracket, if possible. I'm thoughtful of carb cravings and how it can interfer if I eat a tiny bit too much mash or other carb.
It's mainly hunger grouchiness I want to avoid whilst dieting.

 

[Mep]

Dr. Neil Barnard's book on reversing diabetes seems a good place to start. I downloaded mine on Kindle. John McDougall's programme is good too and I am pretty sure much of that is on his website. Neither seem to restrict whole carbs specifically, unlike the 80/10/10. Joel Furhman seems to be another proponent with his Beans n Greens regimen.

There are a couple of McDougall groups, Neil Barnard, Michael Greger's Nutrition Facts and Cyrus Khambatta and Robby Barbaro of Mastering Diabetes (both of whom are Type 1) on Facebook. All have websites.

Yeh I just watched the Spud Fit guy interview both Dr McDougall and Dr Barnard.... and a few others. Very interesting. I'm also impressed at the weight loss he achieved during the year on a potato diet. Also with Dr Barnard talking about how he advocates diabetics living off a plant based diet to reduce fat and increase insulin sensitivity.

 

[Oldvatr]

Yeh I just watched the Spud Fit guy interview both Dr McDougall and Dr Barnard.... and a few others. Very interesting. I'm also impressed at the weight loss he achieved during the year on a potato diet. Also with Dr Barnard talking about how he advocates diabetics living off a plant based diet to reduce fat and increase insulin sensitivity.

It is my considered opinion that as a T2D who is NOT able to bolus adjust for a high carb intake, then a diet such as being discussed here would actually put me into clear and present danger, and would be harmful to me. It is not that it is vegan that is the problem, since there are vegans here successfully doing low carb, and although I am not myself vegetarian, I am consuming a large proportion of my LC diet as vegetable.

I believe the claims being made for WFPB as able to reverse T2D to be misleading, and not once has anyone shared their own journey, or offered plausible evidence to make me think again. After a year of asking and reviewing I am still without supportive evidence that is not commercial hard sell by one or other of the guru's quoted. What they say is their own opinions, and seems to have no scientific backing They are just Vloggers out to make a buck.

The posting of this info on an open T2D thread is irresponsible if there is no warning that it is high carb which can cause damage to those of us on diet or orals only.

I note that one of our esteemed colleagues has tried changing to this diet, and has reported just recently that it made them ill, and that they have had to go back onto LCHF,

 

[Mep]

It is my considered opinion that as a T2D who is NOT able to bolus adjust for a high carb intake, then a diet such as being discussed here would actually put me into clear and present danger, and would be harmful to me. It is not that it is vegan that is the problem, since there are vegans here successfully doing low carb, and although I am not myself vegetarian, I am consuming a large proportion of my LC diet as vegetable.

I believe the claims being made for WFPB as able to reverse T2D to be misleading, and not once has anyone shared their own journey, or offered plausible evidence to make me think again. After a year of asking and reviewing I am still without supportive evidence that is not commercial hard sell by one or other of the guru's quoted. What they say is their own opinions, and seems to have no scientific backing They are just Vloggers out to make a buck.

The posting of this info on an open T2D thread is irresponsible if there is no warning that it is high carb which can cause damage to those of us on diet or orals only.

I note that one of our esteemed colleagues has tried changing to this diet, and has reported just recently that it made them ill, and that they have had to go back onto LCHF,

Yeh well personally I don't advocate any particular diet full stop and stick to my own which is I eat what doesn't cause me pain. I've tried the LCHF diet in the past as I've mentioned other places in this forum and it's not a diet for me. Now I struggle with digesting meat and I can't eat processed meat either. Each to their own I say... people have to find out what works for them. I just was responding to AliB's post here. Diet is simply trial and error in my case. If it doesn't work, I try something different. I also don't agree with people posting their opinion on this forum is dangerous because fact is none of us are medical professionals and this is a forum full of opinions on everything. If people can't express an opinion, well they wouldn't be here would they. People should be welcomed to share their opinion... there's no one size fits all like some seem to think. It's ok to agree to disagree too... all part of communication and life. I wish you the best.

 

[Oldvatr]

This thread is entitled Reversing Type 2 Diabetes. Therefore anyone offering a solution which they lay claim to being a cure for T2D has to be properly discussed, and the evidence they use to support their claim has to be held up to the light of independant review and discourse. I follow an LC diet that works for me, and I have often provided evidence and research that supports the claim that it assists reducing T2D.

The same cannot be said of those that propose WFPB or a grain based plant based vegan diet as a means of curing T2D, Did AliB provide any personal journey evidence, or link to any scientific research that could give credence to their glossy video presentations or validate what their guru is claiming.? Did any of the other WFPB supporters who have posted on this forum in the last year done so? I have been stunned by the silence that follows my simple requests for corroborating data, Instead we get pushed from Vlog to Vlog to book to book to je ne sais quoi.

As an ex multilevel marketer (MLM) I realise the power of a good video presentation to fool the masses. We have a duty of care to do our best to make sure this site is not used to promote false claims, expecially if these could be harmful to health rather than just pecuniary loss. When these followers of Greger, Bernstein et al bother to engage in proper discussion as to why a high carb plant based, grain based diet is better at controlling sugar levels for T2D, then I welcome the challenge.

One last word on this. It has recently been announced that the Vegan Society has entered a formal partnership with either DUK or PHE to actively promote the whole plant grain based diet for all. and this is of concern to all who reject the Eatwell Plate diet. Already ADA has opened the door to WFPB as being suitable for diabetics. WHERE is the Evidence?

https://www.vegansociety.com/society/whos-involved/partners/british-dietetic-association

Add: this is what I gleaned from Forks over Knives as a strict guide to what a WFPB diet allows etc

 

[ickihun]

It alarms me that the elephant in the room is ALL carbs.
Then do own tolerances to them to see if any suitable individually. Rather that other way around, maybe?

I wish I'd low carbs properly on first diagnosis, if only I'd known! Too much water under my bridge and now have mammoth task!

 

[Mep]

This thread is entitled Reversing Type 2 Diabetes. Therefore anyone offering a solution which they lay claim to being a cure for T2D has to be properly discussed, and the evidence they use to support their claim has to be held up to the light of independant review and discourse. I follow an LC diet that works for me, and I have often provided evidence and research that supports the claim that it assists reducing T2D.

The same cannot be said of those that propose WFPB or a grain based plant based vegan diet as a means of curing T2D, Did AliB provide any personal journey evidence, or link to any scientific research that could give credence to their glossy video presentations or validate what their guru is claiming.? Did any of the other WFPB supporters who have posted on this forum in the last year done so? I have been stunned by the silence that follows my simple requests for corroborating data, Instead we get pushed from Vlog to Vlog to book to book to je ne sais quoi.

As an ex multilevel marketer (MLM) I realise the power of a good video presentation to fool the masses. We have a duty of care to do our best to make sure this site is not used to promote false claims, expecially if these could be harmful to health rather than just pecuniary loss. When these followers of Greger, Bernstein et al bother to engage in proper discussion as to why a high carb plant based, grain based diet is better at controlling sugar levels for T2D, then I welcome the challenge.

One last word on this. It has recently been announced that the Vegan Society has entered a formal partnership with either DUK or PHE to actively promote the whole plant grain based diet for all. and this is of concern to all who reject the Eatwell Plate diet. Already ADA has opened the door to WFPB as being suitable for diabetics. WHERE is the Evidence?

https://www.vegansociety.com/society/whos-involved/partners/british-dietetic-association

Add: this is what I gleaned from Forks over Knives as a strict guide to what a WFPB diet allows etc

The main thing is you do what works for you. I'm not a supporter of people pushing diets on others and I get the impression reading some posts on here that some think their diet they're on is the only way others should eat also, when really what they should be saying is this diet works for me. What if you have a lot of diseases? There is no one size fits all, you do trial and error with everything to find what works for you. That's most certainly been my journey. What's to say plant based diet doesn't work for some? (regardless of whether or not there are studies... which Dr McDougall says there are studies as I was watching one of his vids last night). It may not work for you perhaps, but it may work perfectly well for the next person. I'm no expert on dietary advice and I only ever talk about my own experience with diet. I've a restricted diet. I was simply stating that I was interested in watching Dr McDougall's vids on his view of things..... nothing too fancy about that. And no I don't have the scientific evidence based on what I'm watching. I'm willing to try things though which I did with the LCHF diet years back. I'm not trying anything though solely on diabetes, I try things based on my overall health. As for reversing diabetes, well I prefer the word 'control' because that is exactly what people are doing when they talk about reversing anything (my other diseases included). If that control isn't maintained, then you don't get the results you want or hoping to achieve.

 

[ickihun]

The main thing is you do what works for you. I'm not a supporter of people pushing diets on others and I get the impression reading some posts on here that some think their diet they're on is the only way others should eat also, when really what they should be saying is this diet works for me. What if you have a lot of diseases? There is no one size fits all, you do trial and error with everything to find what works for you. That's most certainly been my journey. What's to say plant based diet doesn't work for some? (regardless of whether or not there are studies... which Dr McDougall says there are studies as I was watching one of his vids last night). It may not work for you perhaps, but it may work perfectly well for the next person. I'm no expert on dietary advice and I only ever talk about my own experience with diet. I've a restricted diet. I was simply stating that I was interested in watching Dr McDougall's vids on his view of things..... nothing too fancy about that. And no I don't have the scientific evidence based on what I'm watching. I'm willing to try things though which I did with the LCHF diet years back. I'm not trying anything though solely on diabetes, I try things based on my overall health. As for reversing diabetes, well I prefer the word 'control' because that is exactly what people are doing when they talk about reversing anything (my other diseases included). If that control isn't maintained, then you don't get the results you want or hoping to achieve.

I totally agree.
It is refreshing to find any type2 diabetic with JUST diabetes. Some have inflammation problems or hormonal problems, or both.

I think I had to totally agree mentioned on this forum insulin resistance causes type2 diabetes. Insulin resistance is a liver problem not a pancreas problem.

REVERSE insulin resistance then you will reverse type2 diabetes.
Exercise and low carb is good for the liver.

Show me a type2 with no fatty liver and you'll see a reversed type2.

 

[onnecar]

My big question is regarding potential reversal of diabetes type 2. If and when diabetes is reversed what happens then? Does one have to have a lifetime of low carbs, ketosis and fasting? Can we ever be able to eat like the rest of our family and friends. This aspect is never spoken of. If this is a lifestyle change then it's definitely not a cure simply a remission and the diabetes can return if the diet is not permanently adhered too. A harsh reality for some I'm sure, including me. Does anyone have any experience of life after reversal? It's been well know for years that a very low cal diet particularly low carbs can reduce glucose levels so this isn't exactly new. It's just packaged differently and there is now more knowledge about why it works and the link with lipids. So in a nutshell is it a question of just eat very little for the rest of your life and stave off diabetes and hopefully get rid of the meds?

 

[rab5]

My big question is regarding potential reversal of diabetes type 2. If and when diabetes is reversed what happens then? Does one have to have a lifetime of low carbs, ketosis and fasting? Can we ever be able to eat like the rest of our family and friends. This aspect is never spoken of. If this is a lifestyle change then it's definitely not a cure simply a remission and the diabetes can return if the diet is not permanently adhered too. A harsh reality for some I'm sure, including me. Does anyone have any experience of life after reversal? It's been well know for years that a very low cal diet particularly low carbs can reduce glucose levels so this isn't exactly new. It's just packaged differently and there is now more knowledge about why it works and the link with lipids. So in a nutshell is it a question of just eat very little for the rest of your life and stave off diabetes and hopefully get rid of the meds?

It’s a lifestyle change but not low calorie. I’m on the keto diet I don’t count calories.

 

[Bluetit1802]

My big question is regarding potential reversal of diabetes type 2. If and when diabetes is reversed what happens then? Does one have to have a lifetime of low carbs, ketosis and fasting? Can we ever be able to eat like the rest of our family and friends. This aspect is never spoken of. If this is a lifestyle change then it's definitely not a cure simply a remission and the diabetes can return if the diet is not permanently adhered too. A harsh reality for some I'm sure, including me. Does anyone have any experience of life after reversal? It's been well know for years that a very low cal diet particularly low carbs can reduce glucose levels so this isn't exactly new. It's just packaged differently and there is now more knowledge about why it works and the link with lipids. So in a nutshell is it a question of just eat very little for the rest of your life and stave off diabetes and hopefully get rid of the meds?

My thoughts:

At this moment in time there is no cure for diabetes, T1 or T2.

It is perfectly possible to put T2 into remission through lifestyle changes, particularly through diet. It is also possible to add the odd carb or two back in your eating plan without causing any harm or taking you back out of remission. However, go back to your old way of eating, the likelihood is is your remission status will become a thing of the past, and all the weight you may have lost will re-appear.

Personally, I have found I can tolerate a few extra carbs these days without spiking, but I am very aware that I need to keep my weight down or I would end up back where I started over 4 years ago.

 

[Oldvatr]

.........> Does one have to have a lifetime of low carbs, ketosis and fasting? ,,,,,,,<

Yes, it seems so. I get bored with people claiming that they have found a CURE for T2D, just because a diet plan they followed now allows them to eat more of the food they like. We are now seeing some of these coming back onto the Forum to admit that they have found that prolonged exposure to their old diet has triggered weight gain, and high bgl again, and that it is not the permanent cure they once championed.

This makes sense since the evidence is starting to show a link between the old lifestyles causing obesity and metabolic syndrome (highly suspected,but not yet proven) and so it would seem that although a lifestyle change can be used to get bgl back to 'normal' levels, it is nonetheless something that does need to be sustained for life so is a strong method of control, but not yet a cure as currently defined. I have experienced this myself, in that my changes to lifestyle did indeed allow me to drop most of my meds, and be officially declared Normal by my GP. But I can easily demonstrate that whilst I am certainly more carb tolerant, a single chinese takeaway will blow my bgl into the stratosphere again. So I am not cured or even reversed, but I can control quite easily by diet.

I am happy with that. At least I now have a choice in the matter.

 

[rab5]

I have just cured, reversed put into remission, ceased to be, no longer of this world etc etc etc MyT2.

I have had to make changes to accomplish this, Diet and now exercise to name the main ones. If I go back to my old ways I will regain the weight and the T2 symptoms and damage will raise its ugly sugar covered head. The decision is mine. I am in control. If others want to say they have cured it, Im fine with that. We each have to decide how we deal with it.

Life is about choice. In some ways this has given me the boot up the proverbial that was needed. Perhaps a high price to pay but thats the cards I have been dealt. Onwards and upwards

 

[Oldvatr]

@Oldvatr and @Mbaker Now I am getting confused lol

The thread, as far as I understand, was started about a Whole Food Plant Based way of eating. This is a very specific way of eating. I am not a fan of Ancel Keys, the prescribed ADA diet, the prescribed NHS diet, NICE guidelines, Eatwell #1, Eatwell #2, Eatwell The Directors Cut, whatever.

I am plant based, but I don't have a dog in this fight as I am not whole foods (yet) I was simply pointing out that all these ways of eating are not the same as a Whole Food Plant Based way of eating.

One thing I find very telling about WFPB is that we get a regular influx of sales pitches here, with glossy videos etc, but when I or others have asked for what evidence is backing up their claims for a CURE, then it is sadly lacking and the thread goes quiet. I have yet to see credible personal experiences being recounted here, or personal success stories being posted to say It worked for Me. We just get more carefully prepared sales videos and fluff.

The science used by Michael Greger and McDougal comes from the ADVENT 2 study. This was carried out by the Church of Latter Day Saints in their incarnation of 7th Day Adventists (hence the study name) and was commisioned by them to demonstrate that their way of life is the only one officially provided and recommended by God himself. It was a flawed study in terms of the way it was conducted, and is highly suspect as being somewhat biassed in its analysis. I think you will find that these gentlemen can claim Dr as a title since they hold an academic qualification (i.e. Masters Degree) in agriculture, and are not medically qualified. As I said in an earlier post, WFPB used to be a Low GI diet and was at one time considered valid for treating diabetes. It can still be considered valid for insulin users, but the whole grain aspect as now being promoted is probably no longer advisable for T2D in light of what we now know about the effect of carbs on sugar levels and insulin. The high fruit / high corn content is also something a T2D should also be careful with.