Stop Keto Now - The Mice Have Spoken!

[lucylocket61]

https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/th...udy-in-mice-lacks-relevance-to-humans.155132/

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

The last time I had a mouse in my house it quite enjoyed some Lindt 90% chocolate. I never did catch the little beggar.

 

[bulkbiker]

I thought hydrogenated fats were now know to be evil stuff and very harmful and banned in several countries.

Thats why this study is unfortunately complete bovine excrement...

 

[Hotpepper20000]

complete bovine excrement...

Oh my this line is just perfect. Just about spewed my coffee reading this.

 

[Robbity]

The last time I had a mouse in my house it quite enjoyed some Lindt 90% chocolate. I never did catch the little beggar.

My thieving mice missed out on chocolate but apparently knew all about research devised nonsensical ketogenic "diets" over 30 years ago - and turned vegan and lived happily ever after nibbling all the lovely apples stored in my attic, but then field mice obviously have more dietary discretion than any helpless little lab mices.

As for me, I shall just stop labelling my diet as keto/low carb and call it very low carb fat adapted instead and so hopefully carry on without ever needing to be concerned over any ketogenic diet "research" results from daft scientists for another few years...

Grumpily. Robbity

 

[NicoleC1971]

Indeed. Male Bovine Excrement (MBE!)
Keto is definitely needing a rebrand. Try some bingo next time you mention eating a high fat diet. Shout house when the health professional has said 'faddy', 'not evidence based' , 'artery blocking' or 'did you realise fat has twice the calories of carbohydrate' and 'balanced diets should include healthy wholegrains;.

 

[Deleted member 308541]

Just loved the title, "the mice have spoken!", so had to drop in.

The Brain: Tomorrow night, Pinky, we will come up with a new plan. One that isn't foiled by the keto diet.

Pinky: Narf!

 

[Mbaker]

Which is here
https://www.envigo.com/resources/data-sheets/96355.pdf

Casein 173.3
DL-Methionine 2.6
Vegetable Shortening, hydrogenated (Crisco) 586.4
Corn Oil 86.2
Cellulose 87.97
Vitamin Mix, Teklad (40060) 13.0
Choline Bitartrate 2.5TBHQ,
antioxidant 0.13
Mineral Mix, Ca-P Deficient (79055) 20.0
Calcium Phosphate, dibasic 19.3
Calcium Carbonate 8.2
Magnesium Oxide 0.4

Doesn't look like anything I have ever eaten or ever would. The measurements are grams per KG so most of it is vegetable fat.
Vegetarians and vegans beware....

Described as a "Purified Diet".... hmmm

I have literally just had bacon and eggs at the end of my networking meeting - very anti-social just to ensure I get a minimum of 16 hours fasting before eating...anyway I can honestly say the above makes me feel queasy, especially the corn oil and cellulose. This is a major misdirection which I would blanket say no experienced Keto / LCHF would go near - yuk. I saw in a post further up, that the institution that conducted this is reputable, I am afraid, if I see their name in any article ever again, I will not waste a millisecond of my life reading what they say.

 

[Oldvatr]

I have literally just had bacon and eggs at the end of my networking meeting - very anti-social just to ensure I get a minimum of 16 hours fasting before eating...anyway I can honestly say the above makes me feel queasy, especially the corn oil and cellulose. This is a major misdirection which I would blanket say no experienced Keto / LCHF would go near - yuk. I saw in a post further up, that the institution that conducted this is reputable, I am afraid, if I see their name in any article ever again, I will not waste a millisecond of my life reading what they say.

Mike, I have read the actual report that is archived, and the press release is NOT saying the same things at all, in fact it is almost the direct opposite. It is the press misreporting the results, not the researchers themselves.

As regards the diet ingredients, it is aimed at producing ketosis in animals, not humans, I understand that most petfood is classed as edible for human consumption, and the pet food firms used to employ human tasters. I remember the Kit-e-kat taster being interviewed on tv about his job many years ago. Nowadays, petfood has become quite expensive, so is not such an economic option for those on low incomes but that was why the man was interviewed from what I remember. In terms of taste, I remember that Kit-e-kat only came in a fish flavour, and smelt quite strongly, so would not be to my liking. I would not have eaten it through choice thats for sure.

The research itself was responding to the general populace, and not diabetics, so may use ingredients that we here would find to be poor choice for our particular needs, but which would be perfectly acceptble in the general population.

 

[Tannith]

According to the article Tim Spector the Gut Bacteria expert ( who was on Channel 4 on Monday night talking about diet & gut health), says that the keto diet is unhealthy because it contains few veggies. Is it possible to include veggies in a keto diet or does that stop it working?

 

[Brunneria]

According to the article Tim Spector the Gut Bacteria expert ( who was on Channel 4 on Monday night talking about diet & gut health), says that the keto diet is unhealthy because it contains few veggies. Is it possible to include veggies in a keto diet or does that stop it working?

If you have a look at the wealth of information available about eating ketogenically, you will find that the idea of not enough vegetables is one only held by people who don't know what keto is about.

When I switched to keto, I kept my protein portions the same, subtracted the carbs and replaced them with veg.
My way of eating instantly became more nutritious than previously since I was no longer bulking things out with low-nutrient carbs, and my vegetable intake more than doubled.

Anyone who takes the time to read up about a well formulated, healthy, sustainable keto way of eating wouldn't blather on about not enough vegetables.

Mind you, some people don't eat vegetables from choice (various reasons) and that is a completely different subject, and it isn't called keto.

Edited to add the following graphic

There are quite a few different keto food pyramids out there.
Some are very heavy on the protein, but that isn't universal.
This one comes from this website
https://lifestyle.mb.com.ph/2017/08/08/the-ketogenic-diet/

 

[Oldvatr]

According to the article Tim Spector the Gut Bacteria expert ( who was on Channel 4 on Monday night talking about diet & gut health), says that the keto diet is unhealthy because it contains few veggies. Is it possible to include veggies in a keto diet or does that stop it working?

A lot of this comes from the early days of Atkins Diet, which was one of the most popular keto diets, and trailblazer for LCHF et al. Their diet plan has been revamped recently so that it is closer to LCHF in its basic structure, but it uses prepared and expensive shakes and snack bars whereas LCHF tends to be more do it yerself,

Some here use fibre supplements to provide for their gut flora such as flaxseeed or chia seed, but as @Brunneria says, LCHF does seem to promote plenty of veg, mainly using above ground veg rather than root veg so that the carb levels remain low for keto. The secret of keto is that we each have a trigger level of carb intake that stops keto from happening, typically somewhere around 50g a day, so it is possible to overeat on veg, so portion size needs to be considered if keto is your goal.

 

[zand]

I have been doing keto for 18 days and have remained in ketosis throughout. I have one meal a day which consists of a plate of veggies and meat or fish or cheese. I could not manage without veggies as I don't like meat and fish enough to survive on them alone. I have to be careful with avocado and broad beans because at around the 20-30g daily carb level these 2 are 'luxuries' that I can't often afford to fit in to my diet. I do have them though, it just takes a little planning.

 

[Mbaker]

Mike, I have read the actual report that is archived, and the press release is NOT saying the same things at all, in fact it is almost the direct opposite. It is the press misreporting the results, not the researchers themselves.

As regards the diet ingredients, it is aimed at producing ketosis in animals, not humans, I understand that most petfood is classed as edible for human consumption, and the pet food firms used to employ human tasters. I remember the Kit-e-kat taster being interviewed on tv about his job many years ago. Nowadays, petfood has become quite expensive, so is not such an economic option for those on low incomes but that was why the man was interviewed from what I remember. In terms of taste, I remember that Kit-e-kat only came in a fish flavour, and smelt quite strongly, so would not be to my liking. I would not have eaten it through choice thats for sure.

The research itself was responding to the general populace, and not diabetics, so may use ingredients that we here would find to be poor choice for our particular needs, but which would be perfectly acceptble in the general population.

Just clarifying that I was referring to the ingredients being a misinterpretation of Keto.

 

[Oldvatr]

Just clarifying that I was referring to the ingredients being a misinterpretation of Keto.

Ketosis is a body status of metabolism, and is not necessarily due to any diet in particular. Some diets are more keto-friendly than others, but keto is NOT solely a diabetic artifact. Body Builders have been using ketogenic diets for years. Such diets tend to be based on whey or caseine and are generally protein heavy compared to what we eould use for bgl control. Whilst it may be expected that posters here would generally talk about diabetic friendly lifestyle changes, we must always bear in mind that scientists and even nutritionists are not so constrained, nor should they if they are looking at the general population needs, However, there are some things that we in the diabetes community can contribute to the debate, based on our experience with monitoring how our bodies react to these diets, and we are generally under GP scrutiny so, for example, we get regular full panel blood tests which many non diabetics do not get.

The current epidemic of diabetes is also providing funding for studies to be carried out, and this is to our advantage

 

[kokhongw]

It never cease to amaze me how readily they would create fear, uncertainty and doubts with gusto when it comes to lifestyle that truly threatens big pharma and food bottomline...

I remember those early days when Microsoft spins the same FUD against Linux and opensource solutions...now they are literally in every hand...

 

[NicoleC1971]

Ketosis is a body status of metabolism, and is not necessarily due to any diet in particular. Some diets are more keto-friendly than others, but keto is NOT solely a diabetic artifact. Body Builders have been using ketogenic diets for years. Such diets tend to be based on whey or caseine and are generally protein heavy compared to what we eould use for bgl control. Whilst it may be expected that posters here would generally talk about diabetic friendly lifestyle changes, we must always bear in mind that scientists and even nutritionists are not so constrained, nor should they if they are looking at the general population needs, However, there are some things that we in the diabetes community can contribute to the debate, based on our experience with monitoring how our bodies react to these diets, and we are generally under GP scrutiny so, for example, we get regular full panel blood tests which many non diabetics do not get.

The current epidemic of diabetes is also providing funding for studies to be carried out, and this is to our advantage

As you say there is an epidemic (9-11% diagnosed with type 2 diabetes) but many suspect that there a large number more who are essentially diabetic thus making it likely that the majority of the population is on the road to metabolic disease and that this disease is associated with increasing consumption of carbohydrates. It is hard to prove causality so we need all types of studies (from rodents to 'N of 1' self experiments ) to help us understand how all this works in our different bodies. The scientific process then weeds out the faults in those studies but we can still learn from them regardless of the manipulative headlines or institutional bias from those invested in one way of the other of eating. Many advocating the low carb diet are aware that it is not proven safe in the long term just as the low fat diet was never proven efficacious or safe at the time that it was adopted.

 

[Mbaker]

Ketosis is a body status of metabolism, and is not necessarily due to any diet in particular. Some diets are more keto-friendly than others, but keto is NOT solely a diabetic artifact. Body Builders have been using ketogenic diets for years. Such diets tend to be based on whey or caseine and are generally protein heavy compared to what we eould use for bgl control. Whilst it may be expected that posters here would generally talk about diabetic friendly lifestyle changes, we must always bear in mind that scientists and even nutritionists are not so constrained, nor should they if they are looking at the general population needs, However, there are some things that we in the diabetes community can contribute to the debate, based on our experience with monitoring how our bodies react to these diets, and we are generally under GP scrutiny so, for example, we get regular full panel blood tests which many non diabetics do not get.

The current epidemic of diabetes is also providing funding for studies to be carried out, and this is to our advantage

Not quite sure where you are going with this, I know a fair amount about body building, coming from a sporting background and having a current interest still. I do think the document is couched in the context of the popularity of diet related Keto, it has been targeted by some alternative protocol advocates. Specifically I was referring to the below making me feel ill after a great breakfast:

Casein 173.3
DL-Methionine 2.6
Vegetable Shortening, hydrogenated (Crisco) 586.4
Corn Oil 86.2
Cellulose 87.97
Vitamin Mix, Teklad (40060) 13.0
Choline Bitartrate 2.5TBHQ,
antioxidant 0.13
Mineral Mix, Ca-P Deficient (79055) 20.0
Calcium Phosphate, dibasic 19.3
Calcium Carbonate 8.2
Magnesium Oxide 0.4

Cellulose made me think of paint.

 

[Oldvatr]

Not quite sure where you are going with this, I know a fair amount about body building, coming from a sporting background and having a current interest still. I do think the document is couched in the context of the popularity of diet related Keto, it has been targeted by some alternative protocol advocates. Specifically I was referring to the below making me feel ill after a great breakfast:

Casein 173.3
DL-Methionine 2.6
Vegetable Shortening, hydrogenated (Crisco) 586.4
Corn Oil 86.2
Cellulose 87.97
Vitamin Mix, Teklad (40060) 13.0
Choline Bitartrate 2.5TBHQ,
antioxidant 0.13
Mineral Mix, Ca-P Deficient (79055) 20.0
Calcium Phosphate, dibasic 19.3
Calcium Carbonate 8.2
Magnesium Oxide 0.4

Cellulose made me think of paint.

This list also reminds me of a science lab cum artists toolbox. I have redacted it to remove the active ingrediant since this recipe occurs in many medicines we use today.

Each tablet contains an active ingredient. The other ingredients are stearic acid; shellac (refined bleached); povidone K-30; silica, colloidal anhydrous; magnesium stearate; hypromellose; hydroxy propyl cellulose; titanium dioxide; propylene glycol; macrogol 6000 and talc.

I personally find this particular one makes me run to the loo....

The capsule meds are often coated in gelatin, an animal byproduct so vegans need to be aware of this. Other pills of mine contain cellulose and chalkdust.

But I swallow them every day without question. I personally would not choose to eat the keto diet listed in the postings, but then again, I wonder how an Optifast or Slimfast or WW shake would compare if listed scientifically. such as shown following
example:
INGREDIENTS: Fat Free Milk, Sugar, Cocoa (Processed With Alkali), Canola Oil, Fructose, Calcium Caseinate, Gum Arabic, Cellulose Gel, Hydrogenated Soybean Oil, Mono and Diglycerides, Potassium Phosphate, Soybean Lecithin, Cellulose Gum, Carrageenan, Isolated Soy Protein, Artificial Flavor, Maltodextrin, Sucralose and Acesulfame (Nonnutritive Sweeteners), Dextrose, Potassium Carrageenan, Citric Acid and Sodium Citrate. Vitamins and Minerals: Magnesium Phosphate, Calcium Phosphate, Sodium Ascorbate, Vitamin E Acetate, Zinc Gluconate, Ferric Orthophosphate, Niacinamide, Calcium Pantothenate, Manganese Sulfate, Vitamin A Palmitate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Thiamin Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Chromium Chloride, Biotin, Sodium Molybdate, Potassium Iodide, Phylloquinone (Vitamin K1), Sodium Selenite, Cyanocobalamin (Vitamin B12) and Cholecalciferol (Vitamin D3).

 

[Tannith]

I have been doing keto for 18 days and have remained in ketosis throughout. I have one meal a day which consists of a plate of veggies and meat or fish or cheese. I could not manage without veggies as I don't like meat and fish enough to survive on them alone. I have to be careful with avocado and broad beans because at around the 20-30g daily carb level these 2 are 'luxuries' that I can't often afford to fit in to my diet. I do have them though, it just takes a little planning.

That's what I eat. One main meal a day. A large salad with fish usually, occasionally chicken or eggs. I have been doing it all summer, and all last summer. I didn't realise that was keto!! I don't eat cheese though, or any other dairy,except at Christmas, because the casein protein in dairy zaps the polyphenols in the veggies and fruit and stops them being as good for you.